Not another sex discrimination thread

Slab

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You're right I wouldn't. If I paid 5 day membership I'd expect to book at a time to suit me (or be able to join a roll up group) so effectively at your place with reduced daylight the chances of me getting a full round would be 3 days out of 5.

Is having a golf club membership really about what suits the individual?
Don't know why but that surprises me
 

Newton

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Is it a principle at play here, or does it actually reduce the number of rounds you play per week? Does it actually reduce your value for money, or is it just theoretical?

It's always rankled but we've lived with it until now. Previously we've just been able to squeeze a full round in before darkness falls but the extra hour or so allocated to the ladies has made a difference.

For reasons I wont bore you with, yes, it does make a difference in reducing the number of rounds per week from 3 to 2.
 
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harpo_72

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Dunno why gender is of significance, can anyone justify that?
I play with anyone, I am a tart. The only issue I have is competition tees, which should be deemed to be not the casual tees. I am not saying move every one up to the white, I am saying move every one, one tee back so red to yellow, and yellow to white.. WHS should actually promote this .
By the way our club has a fixed morning for the ladies, but the seniors just get in the way everyday ... a 7 day membership should give you the right to play 7 days a week not just Sunday.
 

Newton

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Not a club I'd join if 5 day members can only play 4/5 days of the week at full price because Tuesday times are booked up until daylight makes a full round behind impossible. When you add that women can't be 7 day members it seems a club that has some clear divisions

Whilst I can see why you might think that, I genuinely believe that is not he case.
I have played social golf with a good few ladies and there's been no hint that there is any underlying desire to be 7 day members. How much of this is due to the extra cost I don't know.
Similarly the average male weekend golfer couldn't care less about the ladies monopolising Tues tee times as it has no effect on them.

As non competitive golfers, who play only social midweek golf for the love of the game and a couple of drinks in the 19th, we are very much in the minority of the membership. We probably have around 100 5 or 6 day members from a total of 600.
As such, our problems fly very much under the radar.

I think the Saturday 7 day situation, whilst a genuine issue in its own right, has thrown a curve ball into this debate, which essentially, is whether it's discriminatory that male and female golfers who have the same category of membership and pay the same fees, should have unequal access to the course.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Doesn't seem to bother men's sections the length and breadth of the country for their weekend competition slots.
I have no issue whatsoever with ladies having their own reserved times...of course I wouldn't - just reflecting that effectively shutting the course all day to all but those playing in an an exclusive group of whatever nature is never good without consultation across the whole membership. In my club what happened to the ladies would not have happened - but just as it would not have happened for any gents tee reservation.

With my club in the Oct-March months reserved tee bookings are very limited - and none extend beyond midday, in fact we don't run more than one or two competitions that require tee bookings over this period - and those few that we do run are I think mostly mixed - specifically to avoid the sort of issues and conflicts that can arise.

...and we have stopped new 5 day memberships - the existing 5day membership group is withering on the vine...
 
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Wildboy370

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Same theme different angle. If your complaining your missing a round a week and it’s affecting your membership. As someone who has worked the whole of this pandemic and watched countless members and friends play unlimited golf due to furlough between lockdowns can I have a reduction in my membership as I feel hard done by too. Some of my playing partners have enjoyed five or six rounds a week between lockdowns where as I managed about ten in total. just the way the mop flops get over it.
 

DanFST

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Same theme different angle. If your complaining your missing a round a week and it’s affecting your membership. As someone who has worked the whole of this pandemic and watched countless members and friends play unlimited golf due to furlough between lockdowns can I have a reduction in my membership as I feel hard done by too. Some of my playing partners have enjoyed five or six rounds a week between lockdowns where as I managed about ten in total. just the way the mop flops get over it.

What? That’s in no way the same thing.

He has purchased a 5 day membership, because of club policy, only 4 days are available.

Oh no, you’ve watched people play golf whilst working, like myself and many others. Be grateful you have a bloody job, cause once furlough ends. A large chunk of people won’t.
 

Newton

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Same theme different angle. If your complaining your missing a round a week and it’s affecting your membership. As someone who has worked the whole of this pandemic and watched countless members and friends play unlimited golf due to furlough between lockdowns can I have a reduction in my membership as I feel hard done by too. Some of my playing partners have enjoyed five or six rounds a week between lockdowns where as I managed about ten in total. just the way the mop flops get over it.

Whilst I understand your frustration, you're talking about something external to the golf club affecting how often you can play.
I'm talking about internal policies within the golf club affecting how often I can play in comparison with other members who pay identical fees.
Absolutely NOT the same thing at all.
 

backwoodsman

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Which nobody would do - they’d just join somewhere else.

The midweek thing is clearly discriminatory too, incidentally, but has come about as a consequence of the Saturday issue.

Solution is clear. Let women join as 7 day members, make the Saturday comp mixed and either scrap the midweek comp or make it mixed too.

I’d have much more sympathy for the OP if that was what he was pushing for.

Good luck getting a “yes” to that at the AGM. Feckin golf clubs
^^^^ This.

Both need sorting. "Ladies' Tuesdays" and "Men only Saturdays" are the same issue. Unfortunately, it is a big hole that going to be difficult to get out of. Mostly because it is the same people who dug the hole in the first place, who need to go get the ladder. And even if they did, theres no guarantee anyone would climb up it. It will be a rare soul who can persuade both parties to do their bit. I think Kaz's final three words sum it up nicely ...

Ps. Apropos of nothing, why is it always Tuesdays?
 
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Crow

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^^^^ This.

Both need sorting. "Ladies' Tuesdays" and "Men only Saturdays" are the same issue. Unfortunately, it is a big hole that going to be difficult to get out of. Mostly because it is the same people who dug the hole in the first place, who need to go get the ladder. And even if they did, theres no guarantee anyone would climb up it. It will be a rare soul who can persuade both parties to do their bit. I think Kaz's final three words sum it up nicely ...

Ps. Apropos of nothing, why is it always Tuesdays?

Good question in bold, then a thought came to me, maybe because Monday was washing day so Tuesday was the first free day after the weekend?

Or more likely men wanted Monday reserved for their occasional mid-week medal.
 

GreiginFife

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Any argument, IMO, of unfairness is fundamentally flawed, and undone, by the 6 day only rule for ladies.
Regardless as to whether they would play, given the choice, the problem is they don't Have the choice.
If the option was offered, and they didn't take it, then that's different.

Whilst I sympathise that you find it hard to play on your chosen day, and to an extent we all encounter that, it's not really the club's responsibility if you can only play on a Tuesday. If they move it and Bob and his mates can only play on a Wednesday, they start to complain.

Ultimately we all have a choice as to whether something is worth paying for.
I moved clubs 4 years ago on the basis that the seniors had taken over, was it fair? No, but it gave me a choice to make.

Even now, I struggle to get a tee on a Saturday or Sunday due to reduced tee availability but not a reduced member base.

In your club's case, until the option of parity is given, whether taken or not, then the fairness door swings both ways IMO.
 

Bdill93

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I think you've got some sort of a case for an argument about not really having 5 day access despite paying for it, but as you mention, its only really a winter problem so it might not hold up in debate at an AGM.

Do your club not offer early morning tees before the comps go out? My regular weekend 4 ball commonly goes off at 7.44 (15 mins before the mixed weekend comp) so we avoid the 2-4 hour backlog on the first tee and can get our rounds completed in daylight. We can book from 6am-7.44am to get out before the comp!
 

Smiffy

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If the only day I could play was Tuesday and Tuesday was ladies only I'd join another club.
Or suck it up until the clocks go forward.
I wouldn't be writing any letters trying to change things
 

Dibby

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Ignoring discrimintion which seems to cloud the issue, and focusing on solving the actual problem, is it not possible that you can start on the 10th in the morning, so that by the time you are coming round for your back 9, the ladies should have cleared the first?
Presumably the 1st will also be quiet when you get there because noone can complete a full round, but you can always book a sensible time for the first based on your projected arrival if needed.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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I think you've got some sort of a case for an argument about not really having 5 day access despite paying for it, but as you mention, its only really a winter problem so it might not hold up in debate at an AGM.

Do your club not offer early morning tees before the comps go out? My regular weekend 4 ball commonly goes off at 7.44 (15 mins before the mixed weekend comp) so we avoid the 2-4 hour backlog on the first tee and can get our rounds completed in daylight. We can book from 6am-7.44am to get out before the comp!
I'm surprised that, when the days are short, the end time of a morning/early afternoon block tee reservation isn't pulled in to enable others not playing in the reserved times to get a full round in. And that should apply to ANY and ALL tee reservations for specific 'groups' of members.
 

clubchamp98

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^^^^ This.

Both need sorting. "Ladies' Tuesdays" and "Men only Saturdays" are the same issue. Unfortunately, it is a big hole that going to be difficult to get out of. Mostly because it is the same people who dug the hole in the first place, who need to go get the ladder. And even if they did, theres no guarantee anyone would climb up it. It will be a rare soul who can persuade both parties to do their bit. I think Kaz's final three words sum it up nicely ...

Ps. Apropos of nothing, why is it always Tuesdays?
These things have been going on at golf clubs for over a hundred years or how long it’s been open.
The men won’t give up Saturday.
The Ladies won’t give up Tuesday.
Getting anything changed in golf clubs is not easy.
Most give up because of frustration it’s a minefield.
Truth is most men don’t want to play with the women.
Most women don’t want to play with the men.
This is true at my club anyway after asking quite a lot why “ I just don’t “ was the feeling.
Until that changes nothing will happen unless it’s forced on them with all comps being mixed.
 

Dibby

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You haven't thought that through.

How can he tee off the 10th when there's a constant flow coming through who started on the 1st?

How so?

Depending how fast the ladies play, there is roughly a 1.5-2.5 hour slot at the start before they reach 10, if he goes off near the end of that, then by the time he reaches the first, somewhere between 3-5 hours will have elapsed since the ladies started teeing off depending on pace. If its near the lower end, it may need a short halfway hut stop, and so the 9s are a bit broekn but he can certainly hget 18 holes in of the day, realistically a ladies comp in 3 balls is likely to be at least a 4 hour round so minimal waiting really.
 

Swango1980

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How so?

Depending how fast the ladies play, there is roughly a 1.5-2.5 hour slot at the start before they reach 10, if he goes off near the end of that, then by the time he reaches the first, somewhere between 3-5 hours will have elapsed since the ladies started teeing off depending on pace. If its near the lower end, it may need a short halfway hut stop, and so the 9s are a bit broekn but he can certainly hget 18 holes in of the day, realistically a ladies comp in 3 balls is likely to be at least a 4 hour round so minimal waiting really.
If he goes off near the end of that (i.e. just before the first ladies reach the 10th), would the easier solution not be that he starts on the 1st just before the ladies? Unless the ladies start at the crack of dawn.
 

Dibby

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If he goes off near the end of that (i.e. just before the first ladies reach the 10th), would the easier solution not be that he starts on the 1st just before the ladies? Unless the ladies start at the crack of dawn.

Well it was implied that the first tee wasn't available untill midday. At this time of year it will be light somewhere between 7:30-8:00 depending on weather, exact location etc.., so the ladies could in theory have this fully booked, with no chance to sneak off before them.
 
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