Nomads to get official handicaps

[Old Skier]

I am guessing that the app will allow anyone with an account (and CDH) to verify the score that has been entered. This will allow 2 visitors who are registered with EG to play a course, record each others scores and confirm them, without adding extra admin burden to the pro shop / host club.

All I can add is that no decision has yet been made on who will be verifying scores but they are leaning towards a member of the host club at the moment.

 

[fundy]

All I can add is that no decision has yet been made on who will be verifying scores but they are leaning towards a member of the host club at the moment.

Surely that would basically null and void it as a useful measure for 99% of people without club membership lol, might get an initial allocation that way but you arent going to get regular cards put in to keep the handicap anywhere close to accurate

Why cant it be any EG member (ie a club member or someone else who has their handicap through this scheme)

 

[Old Skier]

Surely that would basically null and void it as a useful measure for 99% of people without club membership lol, might get an initial allocation that way but you arent going to get regular cards put in to keep the handicap anywhere close to accurate

Why cant it be any EG member (ie a club member or someone else who has their handicap through this scheme)

I'm not an EG rep, I'm sure they will come up with a workable solution. This isn't going to happen tomorrow

 

[fundy]

I'm not an EG rep, I'm sure they will come up with a workable solution. This isn't going to happen tomorrow

Sorry wasnt being critical of you, am very grateful for your communication on this. Would be nice to think they are actually going to make it a workable situation and not a token gesture that never really gets anywhere (and rules like cards have to be signed by a member of the host club would do just that)

Thanks again for the info youve shared, its nice to know whats being proposed/discussed

 

[sunshine]

Sorry wasnt being critical of you, am very grateful for your communication on this. Would be nice to think they are actually going to make it a workable situation and not a token gesture that never really gets anywhere (and rules like cards have to be signed by a member of the host club would do just that)

Thanks again for the info youve shared, its nice to know whats being proposed/discussed

Just want to echo fundy's comments that it great that people like old skier and rulefan are posting on here to educate us proles (apologies to the other guys I've not mentioned who also contribute useful info).

This has obviously got a long way to go, and it's probably just as well courses are closed right now.

I understand how I as a club member submit a card at my home course. I also understand how it would work if I played in an Open at an away course.

Still not clear to me how I would submit a score if I played a casual round at an away course, either with a local member or a fellow visitor or a nomad. Although the EG app has a course handicap calculator for each course, I'm guessing a score submission functionality will be added.

Finally, will be interesting to see how this gets applied internationally. If I went on a golf holiday with my mates to Spain (I can dream), it would be good if we could submit our scores for handicap purposes (both nomads and club members). For the nomads this would be even more important to reflect these scores in their handicap.

Recognise that I'm straying a bit off topic here - sorry.

 

[2blue]

I'm not an EG rep, I'm sure they will come up with a workable solution. This isn't going to happen tomorrow

Would also like to say, many thanks for sharing your info. This matter won't be sorted immediately.... I can see how it may lead to many more people being able to enjoy the wonderful game if golf either as part of a Trad Club or within Social Media groups. The secret of success will be ensuring everybody is happy with what they get from it.... only time will tell. Changing times are ahead.

 

[Crow]

This just popped into my head and hoping someone has an answer.

We're all talking about handicaps from a prize winning (or stealing depending on your viewpoint) stance because the way we've most commonly had our handicaps adjusted is by entering competitions, but what happens in countries where the WHS system (or close to it) has been running for some time? I'm thinking primarily of America as they have the most golfers.

Do they have club handicap competitions in America or do they just use general rounds to set their handicap?
I don't know for sure but I have a feeling that concepts such as the Monthly Medals with prizes and Club Opens aren't common in America.

If that's the case then maybe WHS will lead us to the same place as competitions with prizes aren't needed anymore and those that are held might be ruined by sandbaggers.
If prize competitions are dropped there will be no incentive to manipulate your handicap, apart from downwards for vanity which I believe still happens in the US.

 

[IanM]

no incentive to manipulate your handicap, apart from downwards for vanity which I believe still happens in the US.

Anyone ever seen a 10 handicap American who could break 90? (without mulligans) No, me neither!

 

[Old Skier]

Just want to echo fundy's comments that it great that people like old skier and rulefan are posting on here to educate us proles (apologies to the other guys I've not mentioned who also contribute useful info).

This has obviously got a long way to go, and it's probably just as well courses are closed right now.

I understand how I as a club member submit a card at my home course. I also understand how it would work if I played in an Open at an away course.

Still not clear to me how I would submit a score if I played a casual round at an away course, either with a local member or a fellow visitor or a nomad. Although the EG app has a course handicap calculator for each course, I'm guessing a score submission functionality will be added.

Finally, will be interesting to see how this gets applied internationally. If I went on a golf holiday with my mates to Spain (I can dream), it would be good if we could submit our scores for handicap purposes (both nomads and club members). For the nomads this would be even more important to reflect these scores in their handicap.

Recognise that I'm straying a bit off topic here - sorry.

For club members there home club have access to the WHS which enables them at present to upload casual round scores that have been applied away however the club must first introduce a system for casual card entry and procedures for both home and away courses.

They also have the ability to enter cards from outside the EG area.

This will require the RETURN of physical cards at the moment under the procedures laid down by the club, this may include emailing or photographs. Players should remember that there will be a need for physical cards once the current situation is back to “normal” until the R@A changes the rules.

 

[LincolnShep]

This just popped into my head and hoping someone has an answer.

We're all talking about handicaps from a prize winning (or stealing depending on your viewpoint) stance because the way we've most commonly had our handicaps adjusted is by entering competitions, but what happens in countries where the WHS system (or close to it) has been running for some time? I'm thinking primarily of America as they have the most golfers.

Do they have club handicap competitions in America or do they just use general rounds to set their handicap?
I don't know for sure but I have a feeling that concepts such as the Monthly Medals with prizes and Club Opens aren't common in America.

If that's the case then maybe WHS will lead us to the same place as competitions with prizes aren't needed anymore and those that are held might be ruined by sandbaggers.
If prize competitions are dropped there will be no incentive to manipulate your handicap, apart from downwards for vanity which I believe still happens in the US.

Interesting train of thought.

I believe club membership in the US is much lower (as a percentage of total golfers) than it is the UK. US golfers can apply for a handicap via GHIN regardless of whether they are club members or not. They then submit their own scores without any verification. My experience of US golfers (which is only from Facebook groups, probably not representative) is that many of them treat the rules as optional and they are more interested in scoring low and having fun. One mulligan per nine, don't play off tree roots, kick it out from under bushes etc. That's fine if it's just Bubba and his buddies and they all play in the same spirit - but then they submit their scores and end up with handicaps that are way too low (from a UK perspective).

If handicaps for nomadic golfers does lead to a lowering of standards of verification then that could, as you speculated, spell the end of prize opens. Wouldn't bother me, I play opens because it's often cheaper than the green fee for the same course. I don't expect any prizes - which is lucky as I never get any!

 

[mikejohnchapman]

The sole reason I am a member of my club is to have an official handicap. I'd be much happier to frequent teetimes.com or play as a guest.

I think that's a bit sad really that you feel being a member of that club offers you nothing other than the ability to hold a handicap. If that's so you are certainly right to leave as soon as you can make alternative arrangements. However, I think others will value their membership for other reasons other than handicap qualification.

 

[hovis]

I think that's a bit sad really that you feel being a member of that club offers you nothing other than the ability to hold a handicap. If that's so you are certainly right to leave as soon as you can make alternative arrangements. However, I think others will value their membership for other reasons other than handicap qualification.

A golf membership offers me two things. A handicap and a course to play golf on. I don't need anything more

 

[rulefan]

A golf membership offers me two things. A handicap and a course to play golf on. I don't need anything more

What use do you make of your handicap?

 

[hovis]

What use do you make of your handicap?

I play a lot of national events throughout the UK (top courses) work related

 

[IanM]

After a decent trawl through Golf Empire yesterday, I concluded it would be perfectly possible as a 55+ year old who didn't work to spend March to November playing Senior Opens for naff-all money, several times a week if you wanted to! No need to be a club member at all...weekend access is less easy! The non Senior Opens are slightly more expensive. Also, stay away from the South East and you'll save lots!

Of course, there's potentially lots of travel involved, you're committed to play well in advance regardless of weather etc... but what a laugh. You could enter with mates or just stick your name down and see who you draw. You might not even bother about your score and just play for fun! But what you spend on fees, travel and accommodation is very flexible!

I guess you'd miss the (if local) nipping up for a few holes on a nice evening, any social side, but that isn't important for some..

The Players Club near Bristol already offer "Country Membership" that'll get you a handicap, a County Card and a limited number of Rounds there for £100 plus County Levy. So will be interesting how much this nomad-handicap will cost.

 

[Old Skier]

After a decent trawl through Golf Empire yesterday, I concluded it would be perfectly possible as a 55+ year old who didn't work to spend March to November playing Senior Opens for naff-all money, several times a week if you wanted to! No need to be a club member at all...weekend access is less easy! The non Senior Opens are slightly more expensive. Also, stay away from the South East and you'll save lots!

Of course, there's potentially lots of travel involved, you're committed to play well in advance regardless of weather etc... but what a laugh. You could enter with mates or just stick your name down and see who you draw. You might not even bother about your score and just play for fun! But what you spend on fees, travel and accommodation is very flexible!

I guess you'd miss the (if local) nipping up for a few holes on a nice evening, any social side, but that isn't important for some..

The Players Club near Bristol already go a "Country Membership" that'll get you a handicap, a County Card and a limited number of Rounds there for £100 plus County Levy. So will be interesting how much this nomad-handicap will cost.

I play around Somerset/Devon/Cornwall in about 3 or four games a week in different seniors, captains and county card events. I have a problem though, HID is stopping work end of March, was a bit peeved when I suggested she needed to find an interesting hobby.

The initial price for Independent Golfers was banded about by EG - it didn’t meet with a positive response from those in the meeting and I think they will rethink the offer. The 4 counties secretaries also had strong words to say about EG offering anything similar to the current county card system.

 

[sweaty sock]

Interesting train of thought.

I believe club membership in the US is much lower (as a percentage of total golfers) than it is the UK. US golfers can apply for a handicap via GHIN regardless of whether they are club members or not. They then submit their own scores without any verification. My experience of US golfers (which is only from Facebook groups, probably not representative) is that many of them treat the rules as optional and they are more interested in scoring low and having fun. One mulligan per nine, don't play off tree roots, kick it out from under bushes etc. That's fine if it's just Bubba and his buddies and they all play in the same spirit - but then they submit their scores and end up with handicaps that are way too low (from a UK perspective).

If handicaps for nomadic golfers does lead to a lowering of standards of verification then that could, as you speculated, spell the end of prize opens. Wouldn't bother me, I play opens because it's often cheaper than the green fee for the same course. I don't expect any prizes - which is lucky as I never get any!

I asked this question on a more US based forum, and the response was overwhelming
1. Precious few golfers in america are members
2. Even a member would play in 2 or less competitions per year.
3. The vast majority or golf is played in informal leagues or rollups administered by the participants. Who also agree the 'rules'. With the huge majority taking a relaxed view on penalties for lost balls, mulligans and gimmies, this varies widely group to group
4.Nearly all rounds go into thier handicap calculation, no matter the format, nor set of 'rules applied.
5. As long as everyone in the group / league stays together the handicaps stay relevant for their purpose. But from group to group and particularly between groups and official competitions there can be large variation.

So yes, if your a work society, you could agree to joing the england golf handicap scheme, agree your society rules, and enter all your scores verified by other society members. Thus your society is administering the WHS, as most americans do. Probably not even comparable to the club member though. So one way or another something comes unstuck when members play with non members in the opens.

My work lot regularly disregard out of bounds, ignore and replace lost balls, prefer lies, and because its become the norm, everyones 'society' handicap means 43 is a mid table score that is considered 'average'. When I turn up occasionally and get 37 points of my club handicap, I get no end of abuse about how I cant play to it and how they thought I would be more comptitive as I play so often....

Sorry got a bit off topic there...

 

[Crow]

I asked this question on a more US based forum, and the response was overwhelming
1. Precious few golfers in america are members
2. Even a member would play in 2 or less competitions per year.
3. The vast majority or golf is played in informal leagues or rollups administered by the participants. Who also agree the 'rules'. With the huge majority taking a relaxed view on penalties for lost balls, mulligans and gimmies, this varies widely group to group
4.Nearly all rounds go into thier handicap calculation, no matter the format, nor set of 'rules applied.
5. As long as everyone in the group / league stays together the handicaps stay relevant for their purpose. But from group to group and particularly between groups and official competitions there can be large variation.

So yes, if your a work society, you could agree to joing the england golf handicap scheme, agree your society rules, and enter all your scores verified by other society members. Thus your society is administering the WHS, as most americans do. Probably not even comparable to the club member though. So one way or another something comes unstuck when members play with non members in the opens.

My work lot regularly disregard out of bounds, ignore and replace lost balls, prefer lies, and because its become the norm, everyones 'society' handicap means 43 is a mid table score that is considered 'average'. When I turn up occasionally and get 37 points of my club handicap, I get no end of abuse about how I cant play to it and how they thought I would be more comptitive as I play so often....

Sorry got a bit off topic there...

That makes a complete mockery of the reasoning behind introducing the WHS!

 

[sweaty sock]

100%, and tallies with the absolute lottery of standards you see from american golfers...

 

[Foxholer]

That makes a complete mockery of the reasoning behind introducing the WHS!

Not if you put a few quid/drinks on the result!
'Vanity' handicaps may be 'good' over a beer/wine', but could well mean funding the beers/wines too!