No Returns - WHS

[D-S]

I cannot understand how matchplay scores can ever be taken into consideration for handicap scores, I believe in the vast majority of jurisdictions that they aren’t, with the huge exception of the USA,.
You can simply look at a poll in ‘The Lounge’ in the Matchplay Tactics’ thread where 70% plus say they they don’t play the course, they play the man. The very antithesis of the handicap statement which says the player should try to achieve the best possible score on every hole they play.

 

[wjemather]

I cannot understand how matchplay scores can ever be taken into consideration for handicap scores, I believe in the vast majority of jurisdictions that they aren’t, with the huge exception of the USA,.
You can simply look at a poll in ‘The Lounge’ in the Matchplay Tactics’ thread where 70% plus say they they don’t play the course, they play the man. The very antithesis of the handicap statement which says the player should try to achieve the best possible score on every hole they play.

The United States (and other countries under the jurisdiction of the USGA), Canada, New Zealand and South Africa are the countries that I know of where is match play and fourball are authorized formats of play.

 

[D-S]

The United States (and other countries under the jurisdiction of the USGA), Canada, New Zealand and South Africa are the countries that I know of where is match play and fourball are authorized formats of play.

And elsewhere like Europe, the EGA they are not.

 

[rulefan]

Ireland are trialling it.

 

[D-S]

Ireland are trialling it.

It’ll be fascinating to see if they become the first European country to adopt it, interested to see how they judge its success.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Find it incredible that a round where you potentially may not put the ball in the hole once in 18 hole but can go towards a handicap based on “guess score”

 

[Imurg]

Find it incredible that a round where you potentially may not put the ball in the hole once in 18 hole but can go towards a handicap based on “guess score”

At OPAWs a couple of years ago I played 4BBB with Jobr...and did not contribute on a single hole
No putts for a win or a half....all I did was buy the beers.
How can that possibly be used in calculating my handicap ?

 

[Swango1980]

At OPAWs a couple of years ago I played 4BBB with Jobr...and did not contribute on a single hole
No putts for a win or a half....all I did was buy the beers.
How can that possibly be used in calculating my handicap ?

It is a fair point. I have played with people who have pretty much picked up after their tee shot in at least 7 or 8 holes, if their 3 partners have flushed it. Perhaps I have been that guy on occasion. Doesn't seem right to guess a score for official purposes. If I was to pick up after my tee shot, what would I guess for my score on a par 4 for example? Nett double? Yet, perhaps I could well have beaten that if I felt I needed to stay in hole as I had no partners to rely on.

Same goes for fourball match play.

Even in singles matchplay, if my opponent hits a horrific drive, and gives me the hole before I even play my second, massive guesswork as to what I would have ended up with. Could be anything from birdie to double figures.

And, in match play, if the match is over before the 18th, you may well just have to rely on guessed scores after the match is over. Player wins 8&7, thet both walk off course, what are the guesses scores? Bearing the mind the player who won could have been on form of their lives, and could have continued to play miles under their handicap for last 7 holes. Instead to we give them nett pars?

 

[wjemather]

It is a fair point. I have played with people who have pretty much picked up after their tee shot in at least 7 or 8 holes, if their 3 partners have flushed it. Perhaps I have been that guy on occasion. Doesn't seem right to guess a score for official purposes. If I was to pick up after my tee shot, what would I guess for my score on a par 4 for example? Nett double? Yet, perhaps I could well have beaten that if I felt I needed to stay in hole as I had no partners to rely on.

Same goes for fourball match play.

Even in singles matchplay, if my opponent hits a horrific drive, and gives me the hole before I even play my second, massive guesswork as to what I would have ended up with. Could be anything from birdie to double figures.

And, in match play, if the match is over before the 18th, you may well just have to rely on guessed scores after the match is over. Player wins 8&7, thet both walk off course, what are the guesses scores? Bearing the mind the player who won could have been on form of their lives, and could have continued to play miles under their handicap for last 7 holes. Instead to we give them nett pars?

Most Likely Score has the following guidelines (not hard and fast rules) for counting additional strokes for each hole on top of those already taken and any penalty strokes, with a maximum of net double-bogey:

• Inside 5 feet = +1 stroke
• 5 feet to 20 yards = +2/3 strokes (depending on ball position & player ability)
• Outside 20 yards = +3/4 strokes (depending on ball position & player ability)

"A most likely score is used to record a player’s probable score on a hole, when the hole has been started but the player did not hole out their ball. It should be a reasonable assessment of the number of strokes needed to complete the hole."

 

[D-S]

If you don’t change your tactics in 4BB (strokeplay or matchplay) from individual strokeplay rounds based on your playing partners position on the hole then you’re not playing it right.

 

[Swango1980]

Most Likely Score has the following guidelines (not hard and fast rules) for counting additional strokes for each hole on top of those already taken and any penalty strokes, with a maximum of net double-bogey:

• Inside 5 feet = +1 stroke
• 5 feet to 20 yards = +2/3 strokes (depending on ball position & player ability)
• Outside 20 yards = +3/4 strokes (depending on ball position & player ability)

"A most likely score is used to record a player’s probable score on a hole, when the hole has been started but the player did not hole out their ball. It should be a reasonable assessment of the number of strokes needed to complete the hole."

Are these most likely scores applied for scratch golfers and 54 handicappers?

If I was 20 yards from green should I add 3 shots, but 400 yards from green add 4 shots for added robustness?

If the hole not played at all, just nett par?

I can see the arguments for and against, so not having a go at anyone. I'm just edging on the side of it doesn't feel right to me that players can guess scores. I know what happens when subjectivity comes into certain situations.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Most Likely Score has the following guidelines (not hard and fast rules) for counting additional strokes for each hole on top of those already taken and any penalty strokes, with a maximum of net double-bogey:

• Inside 5 feet = +1 stroke
• 5 feet to 20 yards = +2/3 strokes (depending on ball position & player ability)
• Outside 20 yards = +3/4 strokes (depending on ball position & player ability)

"A most likely score is used to record a player’s probable score on a hole, when the hole has been started but the player did not hole out their ball. It should be a reasonable assessment of the number of strokes needed to complete the hole."

What happens if the whole is conceded and you haven’t even taken your second shot onto the green yet ?

It’s a complete joke if anything like above is used

 

[wjemather]

Are these most likely scores applied for scratch golfers and 54 handicappers?

If I was 20 yards from green should I add 3 shots, but 400 yards from green add 4 shots for added robustness?

If the hole not played at all, just nett par?

I can see the arguments for and against, so not having a go at anyone. I'm just edging on the side of it doesn't feel right to me that players can guess scores. I know what happens when subjectivity comes into certain situations.

What happens if the whole is conceded and you haven’t even taken your second shot onto the green yet ?

It’s a complete joke if anything like above is used

The Rules of Handicapping already includes provision for "net double-bogey" for holes started but not completed in stroke play. As I see it, MLS just extends that concept for holes not completed where the player is likely to beat net double-bogey. "Net par" for holes not played is already a provision of WHS.

Yes, the guidelines are the same regardless of handicap, but ability is taken into account. It's important to note they are guidelines only, and I'd say they should be applicable in most situations. There will undoubtedly be situations when more than the recommended strokes should be added (e.g. hard-breaking downhill four-footer) and the system allows that (as far as I understand it). Like much of the new Rules of Golf/Handicapping, it seems even more reliant on individual integrity than the systems we have been used to.

 

[D-S]

[ Like much of the new Rules of Golf/Handicapping, it seems even more reliant on individual integrity than the systems we have been used to.[/QUOTE]
......and if if the results are anything like what happens in the USA then what were once handicaps that you could rely on for club and inter club handicapped competitions will become a thing of the past.

 

[doublebogey7]

At OPAWs a couple of years ago I played 4BBB with Jobr...and did not contribute on a single hole
No putts for a win or a half....all I did was buy the beers.
How can that possibly be used in calculating my handicap ?

Unlikely will though, as its doubtful that it will be one of your top 8 scores.

 

[doublebogey7]

could have continued to play miles under their handicap for last 7 holes. Instead to we give them nett pars?

How, I would like to know, is the current position better.

 

[rulefan]

It’ll be fascinating to see if they become the first European country to adopt it, interested to see how they judge its success.

That's why it is a trial. Ireland (or CONGU for that matter) doesn't have to accept it.
It's done elsewhere because that is traditional.

 

[Imurg]

Unlikely will though, as its doubtful that it will be one of your top 8 scores.

There's no way of knowing that with concessions and gimmes.
It could kick a counting score out if that score is #20...might have an effect on the Index.
As has been said, if I have a 10 footer for the half I'm not worrying about the 5 footer coming back if I miss
Matchplay is a totally different mindset.

 

[Swango1980]

How, I would like to know, is the current position better.

The current system typically required players to submit 3 "proper" scores (so to speak), before players could enter match play competitions. Perhaps some clubs put even bigger restrictions on entry to these, such as playing a minimum number of club comps? If there was clear evidence, then the Committee could always review handicaps for players cleaning up in match play comps.

I don't think that was a bad way to do it. Having players guess their scores instead just doesn't feel like it is better, in my view.

 

[doublebogey7]

The current system typically required players to submit 3 "proper" scores (so to speak), before players could enter match play competitions. Perhaps some clubs put even bigger restrictions on entry to these, such as playing a minimum number of club comps? If there was clear evidence, then the Committee could always review handicaps for players cleaning up in match play comps.

I don't think that was a bad way to do it. Having players guess their scores instead just doesn't feel like it is better, in my view.

I find it difficult to understand how you see a handicap garnered fro just 3 rounds in a year is more accurate than one garnered from maybe up to 100

To me it seems considerably better than ignoring scores pretty much altogether from scores in away opens.