No Returns - WHS

[Swango1980]

Ok.... so both he & the guys confirming his score are cheats..... but, as always, it's hard to get round that.

OK, his putt for a 2 was 5-10 feet. His opponent could only get a 4, so he knocked his ball back. He cannot guarantee he would have got the 2, so they both decide that he could well have missed the putt, and stick down a 3. This happens on 6 or 7 holes, each time they assume he would have had a 2 putt. In reality, you'd expect him to probably have made at least a few of those one putts. So, his final score is several shots higher than it would have been had he holed out, but on each hole him and his opponent made a reasonable assessment that it could not be assumed he would make the putt.

 

[doublebogey7]

Sounds great - can just imagine , I’m not going to hole out on this hole so my most likely score will be a 3 ? perfect

Utterly ridiculous to use Matchplay for handicaps

But with the decisions they have made of the last number of years it’s something that wouldn’t surprise me

Then there should be no handicap match play tournaments and scores from such play as not formed part of the handicap assessment process.

The rest of the world have been doing it for years and see no problem.with it.

 

[wjemather]

It's all too easy to be critical and dismissive of things when you have zero knowledge of how they work or the reasons behind them. There are many golfers who very rarely play in individual qualifying competitions and who's social golf is also not acceptable for handicapping (e.g. 4BBB, match play). Widening the scope allows more people to have more accurate handicaps, especially social golfers.

 

[Traminator]

and who's social golf is also not acceptable for handicapping (e.g. 4BBB, match play)

That is incorrect.

A player may put a General Play score in if he plays by the rules, the fact that he might be socially playing a 4ball match against his mates is completely irrelevant.

And who has "zero knowledge"?
Players like me who have played at every level over the last 40 plus years?

I'd argue anyone wishing to promote some of the Mickey Mouse ways of submitting a fake score are doing more damage than those who value the integrity of the game over the whims of a handful of beginners.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Then there should be no handicap match play tournaments and scores from such play as not formed part of the handicap assessment process.

The rest of the world have been doing it for years and see no problem.with it.

And the rest of the world appear to have handicaps that dont travel very well and are not represented of the players ability from what I recall

When you have a format where putts are given etc and holes not completed and even the the round not fully completed now can that go towards your handicap.

People want to enjoy the game , enjoy the battle in a Matchplay - if we start going down the route of all formats going towards handicaps then people will lose the enjoyment

It’s the same with 4BBB

 

[Swango1980]

Ultimately, a handicap is calculated based on precise numbers (adjusted gross score, course rating, slope, etc.). Currently, in UK, we know the Adjusted Gross Score is accurate because players must hole out. There is no debate. However, by opening the system up to allowing scores to be guessed at can NEVER be considered more accurate, or even have the same level of accuracy as a KNOWN score. Therefore, accuracy will be lost in the handicap calculation if scores can be guessed at. And, when you throw subjectivity, individual ability into the mix, and what formats players generally play, then it is inevitable a minority of golfers at least could have very false handicaps. If you were an elite amateur and picked up 20 yards from the green, how would your guessed score change from a 40 handicapper in the same position? How much variation would a 40 handicapper show if he holed out 100 times? If you were a standard 15ish handicapper with good short game, what score would you put down if you picked up next to the green, compared to a 15 handicapper who has the chipping and putting yips?

So, in my opinion, allowing scores to be guessed certainly does not improve accuracy, and lowers the integrity of the system in that sense. The balance is, if you do allow scores to be guessed then more players will get handicaps, and more scores count towards those handicaps. Personally, I'd rather not have a system where scores are guessed, it just adds more arguments and less trust in handicaps (as this thread now indicates). I'd rather have competition guidelines set up to ensure the organiser is happy with the Scoring History of a player. If not, they don't play. The fact that General Play rounds should be much more easy to submit, I don't think having such a limited Scoring History should be such a barrier anymore.

 

[Old Skier]

Wished I had left this one alone

 

[wjemather]

That is incorrect.

A player may put a General Play score in if he plays by the rules, the fact that he might be socially playing a 4ball match against his mates is completely irrelevant.

And who has "zero knowledge"?
Players like me who have played at every level over the last 40 plus years?

I'd argue anyone wishing to promote some of the Mickey Mouse ways of submitting a fake score are doing more damage than those who value the integrity of the game over the whims of a handful of beginners.

Rule 2.1a - the only authorized formats of play are individual stroke play; i.e. 4BBB is not an approved format of play for handicapping.

Why do you insist on making assertions about these things when it's clear you either haven't read or haven't understood the rules of handicapping?

 

[Traminator]

Rule 2.1a - the only authorized formats of play are individual stroke play; i.e. 4BBB is not an approved format of play for handicapping.

Why do you insist on making assertions about these things when it's clear you either haven't read or haven't understood the rules of handicapping?

You are incorrect.

A player may not submit a score for handicap if he is playing in an officially organised matchplay or 4BBB competition.

However, if 4 are playing socially, any of them may pre-register and submit a General Play score providing they play to the rules of individual strokeplay.

What they do informally outside of that, for example also play a match, is up to them, is allowed and totally irrelevant.

It is you who doesn't fully understand.

 

[wjemather]

You are incorrect.

A player may not submit a score for handicap if he is playing in an officially organised matchplay or 4BBB competition.

However, if 4 are playing socially, any of them may pre-register and submit a General Play score providing they play to the rules of individual strokeplay.

What they do informally outside of that, for example also play a match, is up to them, is allowed and totally irrelevant.

It is you who doesn't fully understand.

You are changing your argument, but you are still wrong. (G2.1/2)

 

[Traminator]

You are changing your argument, but you are still wrong.

I'm not changing anything.

You said, Post 95:
"and who's social golf is also not acceptable for handicapping (e.g. 4BBB, match play)."

I said, Post 96:
"A player may put a General Play score in if he plays by the rules, the fact that he might be socially playing a 4ball match against his mates is completely irrelevant".

I said, Post 101:
"However, if 4 are playing socially, any of them may pre-register and submit a General Play score providing they play to the rules of individual strokeplay.

What they do informally outside of that, for example also play a match, is up to them, is allowed and totally irrelevant."

You have not fully understood the whole meaning of the wording.

And if you still want to jump up and down with your fingers in your ears whilst shouting LA LA LA LA... Consider this scenario.

John and Paul play their weekly friendly fourball against George and Ringo. On the 1st tee, John says "OK with you lads if I put in a General Play score today? I won't fart around but I just need to hole out, so no gimmes for me."
"No problem" says Ringo, "in fact I'll do the same."

So, 4 hours later, our friends have finished their game and are enjoying a beer ?. John and Ringo played by the rules and holed out, didn't take advice etc, and both submitted their cards for handicap.

Whilst they were doing that, Paul kept track of the 4 friends' weekly matchplay score which he and John happened to lose 2&1.

So what you, alone, are saying, is that despite John and Ringo doing exactly the right thing, because Paul kept a mental score of their friendly match, suddenly John and Ringo's cards are no longer valid....?????

That is OBVIOUSLY ridiculous and you clearly haven't grasped it properly.

 

[wjemather]

I'm not changing anything.

You said, Post 95:
"and who's social golf is also not acceptable for handicapping (e.g. 4BBB, match play)."

I said, Post 96:
"A player may put a General Play score in if he plays by the rules, the fact that he might be socially playing a 4ball match against his mates is completely irrelevant".

I said, Post 101:
"However, if 4 are playing socially, any of them may pre-register and submit a General Play score providing they play to the rules of individual strokeplay.

What they do informally outside of that, for example also play a match, is up to them, is allowed and totally irrelevant."

You have not fully understood the whole meaning of the wording.

And if you still want to jump up and down with your fingers in your ears whilst shouting LA LA LA LA... Consider this scenario.

John and Paul play their weekly friendly fourball against George and Ringo. On the 1st tee, John says "OK with you lads if I put in a General Play score today? I won't fart around but I just need to hole out, so no gimmes for me."
"No problem" says Ringo, "in fact I'll do the same."

So, 4 hours later, our friends have finished their game and are enjoying a beer ?. John and Ringo played by the rules and holed out, didn't take advice etc, and both submitted their cards for handicap.

Whilst they were doing that, Paul kept track of the 4 friends' weekly matchplay score which he and John happened to lose 2&1.

So what you, alone, are saying, is that despite John and Ringo doing exactly the right thing, because Paul kept a mental score of their friendly match, suddenly John and Ringo's cards are no longer valid....?????

That is OBVIOUSLY ridiculous and you clearly haven't grasped it properly.

Just how far do you want to shift your goalposts. I'll be ignoring you now. Bye.

 

[Traminator]

Just how far do you want to shift your goalposts. I'll be ignoring you now. Bye.

Oh jeez, that's very mature.

All those guys in your club who you told they can't put in cards for handicap...you need to go back and tell them you were wrong.

 

[2blue]

OK, his putt for a 2 was 5-10 feet. His opponent could only get a 4, so he knocked his ball back. He cannot guarantee he would have got the 2, so they both decide that he could well have missed the putt, and stick down a 3. This happens on 6 or 7 holes, each time they assume he would have had a 2 putt. In reality, you'd expect him to probably have made at least a few of those one-putts. So, his final score is several shots higher than it would have been had he holed out, but on each hole him and his opponent made a reasonable assessment that it could not be assumed he would make the putt.

Yers, I'd agree that it's reasonable to expect he'd have holed at least a couple of those...... so, simply, that's how they should have been scored & the system works.

 

[rulefan]

John and Paul play their weekly friendly fourball against George and Ringo. On the 1st tee, John says "OK with you lads if I put in a General Play score today? I won't fart around but I just need to hole out, so no gimmes for me."
"No problem" says Ringo, "in fact I'll do the same."

So, 4 hours later, our friends have finished their game and are enjoying a beer ?. John and Ringo played by the rules and holed out, didn't take advice etc, and both submitted their cards for handicap.

When and how did they pre-register?

But -
The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their
intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an
authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.
Registration must be confirmed on the day itself in the manner prescribed by the club/Committee.
Authorized formats of play are: Individual stroke

 

[Traminator]

When and how did they pre-register?

But -
The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their
intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an
authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.

Authorized formats of play are: Individual stroke

You ask how did they register?
Yes, clearly they need to pre-register. John and Ringo did it on the IG App.

The bit in italics refers to the option for clubs to decree that regular roll ups must count their scores if they're playing by the rules, eg no gimmes.

 

[rulefan]

The bit in italics refers to the option for clubs to decree that regular roll ups must count their scores if they're playing by the rules, eg no gimmes.

Where does it say that?

CONGU uses the words 'organized competitions’ in an acceptable format. The 'competition' is a 4BBB match. How can the Committee accept the scores if CONCU has declared that the competition format is not acceptable?

 

[Traminator]

Where does it say that?

CONGU uses the words 'organized competitions’ in an acceptable format. The 'competition' is a 4BBB match. How can the Committee accept the scores if CONCU has declared that the competition format is not acceptable?

Turning up for a friendly game is not an organised competition.

In a friendly game we can put in GP scores by following the correct procedure and rules of individual strokeplay. If we additionally score a casual 4 ball match alongside that, so what.

What you quoted is what is being imposed on some roll-ups, ie no need for players to formally and individually pre-register for a GP round as their weekly organised Stableford with no gimmes is now recognised as qualifying.

 

[doublebogey7]

Ultimately, a handicap is calculated based on precise numbers (adjusted gross score, course rating, slope, etc.). Currently, in UK, we know the Adjusted Gross Score is accurate because players must hole out. There is no debate. However, by opening the system up to allowing scores to be guessed at can NEVER be considered more accurate, or even have the same level of accuracy as a KNOWN score. Therefore, accuracy will be lost in the handicap calculation if scores can be guessed at. And, when you throw subjectivity, individual ability into the mix, and what formats players generally play, then it is inevitable a minority of golfers at least could have very false handicaps. If you were an elite amateur and picked up 20 yards from the green, how would your guessed score change from a 40 handicapper in the same position? How much variation would a 40 handicapper show if he holed out 100 times? If you were a standard 15ish handicapper with good short game, what score would you put down if you picked up next to the green, compared to a 15 handicapper who has the chipping and putting yips?

So, in my opinion, allowing scores to be guessed certainly does not improve accuracy, and lowers the integrity of the system in that sense. The balance is, if you do allow scores to be guessed then more players will get handicaps, and more scores count towards those handicaps. Personally, I'd rather not have a system where scores are guessed, it just adds more arguments and less trust in handicaps (as this thread now indicates). I'd rather have competition guidelines set up to ensure the organiser is happy with the Scoring History of a player. If not, they don't play. The fact that General Play rounds should be much more easy to submit, I don't think having such a limited Scoring History should be such a barrier anymore.

I disagree fundamentally with this. At the moment a member may play over 100 rounds a year a large proportion of which are 4 ball or match play competitions (opens, national matchplay), but only ever enter three club singles stroke play comps. How can this members handicap ever be described as accurate. Indeed I would bet the vast majority of golfers play at least 4 times the number of non qualifying rounds as they do qualifying. In my view it would go along way to solving the banditory accusations.

 

[doublebogey7]

And the rest of the world appear to have handicaps that dont travel very well and are not represented of the players ability from what I recall

QUOTE]
There is a very simple exclamation for that. The rest of the world were operating a similar system to WHS and therefore were using slope. So a playing coming over from the states with HI of 18 to play at my club would be forced to play off 18. The same player would now get a CH of 22.