No Returns - WHS

[Swango1980]

I'm sure I talked about this before, but cannot find thread, and hopefully other clubs have had more time to think of how to deal with this.

No Returns. What do clubs plan to do in terms of:

1. Communicating with players on importance of avoiding No Return Scores in competitions (in terms of failing to play holes, or return scores rather than picking up on an odd hole in a medal)
2. If NRs do happen, will you have a procedure on how those are included in a players Scoring History (do those on the committee need to manually enter middling hole scores)?
3. If a player NRs after playing fewer than 10 holes, does that need to be dealt differently than NRing after 10 holes or more?
4. Have you introduced any disciplinary procedures?

I'm aware that NRs are not uncommon, in one of our last comps before WHS we had 10 NRs (bad weather). We will have some players who tend to NR when they lose their head. I'm conscious players have a lot to take in at the moment, so I certainly don't want to be issuing put any strict guidelines about NRing just yet, and scare people off whilst also confusing them. However, I don't want people just NRing because they have a bad day, and suddenly the committee have a lot of head scratching, chasing and determining suitable penalty scores at the end of every competition.

So, would be interested if there are any standard practices clubs are planning to issue to members at some point, either from now or at a point they think members are getting used to the WHS basics

 

[Maninblack4612]

1. Communicating with players on importance of avoiding No Return Scores in competitions (in terms of failing to play holes, or return scores rather than picking up on an odd hole in a medal)

My club can communicate all it wants but I'm afraid that if I want to omit some holes for any reason I'm going to do it. If the WHS system cannot cope with this, hard luck. In any event, if most NR cards were returned, the vast majority would result in the same increase as if they'd been returned, or, more likely, not count.

Surely there's nothing for the club to decide re. how to deal with NRs, it should all be laid down by CONGU. And disciplinary procedures! It's a leisure pursuit, not life or death.

 

[BubbaP]

This may have been the thread you recalled
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/no-returns-policy-vs-reality.106066/post-2214341

 

[wjemather]

My club can communicate all it wants but I'm afraid that if I want to omit some holes for any reason I'm going to do it. If the WHS system cannot cope with this, hard luck. In any event, if most NR cards were returned, the vast majority would result in the same increase as if they'd been returned, or, more likely, not count.

Surely there's nothing for the club to decide re. how to deal with NRs, it should all be laid down by CONGU. And disciplinary procedures! It's a leisure pursuit, not life or death.

WHS can cope with it just fine as long as any "not played" holes are marked correctly. The key responsibilities of the player in this respect is to ensure hole scores are recorded correctly and return all scores regardless of how many holes have been not completed or not started.

Note that under WHS, "not played" holes count as net pars, not net double-bogeys, so there's actually a far greater chance such scores could count than under UHS previously.

Handicap committee members are volunteers. Players who refuse to adhere to the rules of handicapping, particularly those who don't submit their scores, create unnecessary additional work for them, and absolutely should see sanctions.

 

[Swango1980]

WHS can cope with it just fine as long as any "not played" holes are marked correctly. The key responsibilities of the player in this respect is to ensure hole scores are recorded correctly and return all scores regardless of how many holes have been not completed or not started.

Note that under WHS, "not played" holes count as net pars, not net double-bogeys, so there's actually a far greater chance such scores could count than under UHS previously.

Handicap committee members are volunteers. Players who refuse to adhere to the rules of handicapping, particularly those who don't submit their scores, create unnecessary additional work for them, and absolutely should see sanctions.

This is exactly where I am coming from, and what sanctions could be taken without upsetting those that have the attitude "it is just a game".

 

[jim8flog]

I agree entirely.
Whilst I'm not a fan of willy nilly NRing, it's just a game and it happens for various reasons.

As long as someone returns their card (via whichever method these days) so the organisers can see they've NR'd, I don't see what it has to do with anyone apart from the player.

This has always been a bit of misconception

Every player scores affects the Playing Condition calculation and therefore everyones Handicap alterations.

Last time I did the cards there was one player who is notorious for NR every hole when he reckons he does not have a winning score. I deleted his NR and put in the scores myself - his score 35 points hardly a NR.

 

[Swango1980]

This has always been a bit of misconception

Every player scores affects the Playing Condition calculation and therefore everyones Handicap alterations.

Last time I did the cards there was one player who is notorious for NR every hole when he reckons he does not have a winning score. I deleted his NR and put in the scores myself - his score 35 points hardly a NR.

And, god forbid if a player is so bad, they NR in over 12 rounds in 20 (and by NR, I don't mean pick up on one or two holes after starting it, I mean picking u and simply not bothering playing any more holes, or tearing up their card)

 

[rulefan]

WHS can cope with it just fine as long as any "not played" holes are marked correctly. The key responsibilities of the player in this respect is to ensure hole scores are recorded correctly and return all scores regardless of how many holes have been not completed or not started.

Note that under WHS, "not played" holes count as net pars, not net double-bogeys, so there's actually a far greater chance such scores could count than under UHS previously.

Aren't 'hole not played/started' entered differently to 'hole not finished/picked up'? The effect in calculations is different.

 

[Swango1980]

Where's the misconception?

If an amateur club golfer plays in a competition, has a bad day and decides to quit, that's purely his perogative.

As long as he hands in his card, what business is it of anyone?

What do you feel about this statment?:

The Handicap Committee or the Authorized Association should consider disciplinary procedures for players who repeatedly fail to submit their scores or who fail to complete rounds.

 

[Swango1980]

As I said twice, players should always hand their cards in.

Also, I referenced "a competition" and "a bad day", not "repeatedly".

OK, but that is where I am trying to get to. What are clubs going to do. Ignore one or 2 NRs. Start taking action after 3 or more. Or, do they have other boundaries? Will some clubs formally warn players immediately after 1 NR, if there is no good reason for it. In my experience, most NRs are simply because a player has had a bad day, or even a bad hole, and lost their head and given up. I doubt England Golf would deem that an acceptable reason to give up on scoring. Even if they hand in their card, they've still left the last number of holes unplayed and blank, so no one would ever really know how they would have scored. Our last 5 holes are pretty easy, and you often see people who have had bad days finish on a little nice run of pars and even birdies.

I appreciate many club golfers simply go out for fun, and feel it is perfectly OK to give up if they have a bad day. But, as a volunteer, I have no doubt committed hundreds of hours of my life getting into handicapping, sorting new members out, conducting reviews, communicating with members, etc. I now look to the future, and see there could be a lot more chasing and deciding what to do when a player NRs. A worry that really did not exist under CONGU. So, forgive me if I get a little bit frustrated when I've to spend even more time sorting out players who have not fulfilled their limited and simple responsibilities under the rules of handicapping, whilst causing me and others on the Committee extra work in sorting their scoring record out because they couldn't be bothered.

But, my frustrations are balanced by the fact that I certainly do not want golfers feeling they are under pressure to continue playing when they are mentally done. As a Committee member I want golfers to be buzzing about all aspects of the club, and to feel under no pressure to do things against their wishes. I certainly didn't join the Committee because I wanted to piss golfers off, I joined as I wanted to make a positive difference.

So, I'd love to know what other clubs will be doing, so that we are not overly tough, or accused of being too lenient. We want to be as fair as possible. Last time we had a competition when the weather was dodgy, 10 golfers NRed. Should someone make a subjective call and say "weather was pretty bad, let them off this time", or should the 10 players be reminded they shouldn't do this, or even tougher actions taken, especially if any of these players have NRed 2 or 3 times in the recent past?

I certainly think it would be a failure if we simply do nothing, because I'm guessing there is usually at least one NR in most competitions. Most of those because a player has given up rather than being injured. So, if we did nothing then we'd need to resolve those NRs every round. Unless the system did it for us, which I'm unsure it will as it will not know the circumstances why the NR occured.

 

[wjemather]

This is exactly where I am coming from, and what sanctions could be taken without upsetting those that have the attitude "it is just a game".

I'd have thought they shouldn't be too upset about about missing out on a few competitions or having their handicap index withdrawn for a while.

Aren't 'hole not played/started' entered differently to 'hole not finished/picked up'? The effect in calculations is different.

This is my point; players will need ongoing education with regards to what to write on their card and input on the score entry system. We have issued multiple newsletters covering key WHS points such as this, but many simply won't have read them, so we will need to give them some leeway for a while.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Always the same question asked every year

The answer is always the same - don’t punish people just because they have a bad day and don’t put the card in - simple

In all my years doing the Handicap Comps it’s never bothered me once

If the card isn’t there then it’s a DQ and move on , can never recall people do it regularly

Always remember that we play the game for fun , it’s our enjoyment with a bit of competitive spirit thrown in - leave the “sanctions” to the elite etc

 

[Swango1980]

Always the same question asked every year

The answer is always the same - don’t punish people just because they have a bad day and don’t put the card in - simple

In all my years doing the Handicap Comps it’s never bothered me once

If the card isn’t there then it’s a DQ and move on , can never recall people do it regularly

Always remember that we play the game for fun , it’s our enjoyment with a bit of competitive spirit thrown in - leave the “sanctions” to the elite etc

What do you think to Post 11 then? Remember, every year we did not have WHS.

 

[wjemather]

Always the same question asked every year

The answer is always the same - don’t punish people just because they have a bad day and don’t put the card in - simple

In all my years doing the Handicap Comps it’s never bothered me once

If the card isn’t there then it’s a DQ and move on , can never recall people do it regularly

Always remember that we play the game for fun , it’s our enjoyment with a bit of competitive spirit thrown in - leave the “sanctions” to the elite etc

Not submitting a competition or declared round score contravenes the players responsibilities under the rules of handicapping. Missing scores can affect the PCC and therefore everyone else's handicap.

Ignoring non-submission of scores contravenes the handicap committee's responsibilities under the rules of handicapping.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

What do you think to Post 11 then? Remember, every year we did not have WHS.

What about it ? Doesnt change the point - how many people do you actually believe are going to do it deliberately?

Why does having WHS make a difference ?

Not submitting a competition or declared round score contravenes the players responsibilities under the rules of handicapping. Missing scores can affect the PCC and therefore everyone else's handicap.

Ignoring non-submission of scores contravenes the handicap committee's responsibilities under the rules of handicapping.

Nothing is “ignored” - the player is DQ from the competition- simple

As for the “affecting” everyone’s handicap- the affect is minimal , in olden terms it was treated as just missing the buffer , what difference do you think one missing scorecard makes

 

[rulefan]

Not submitting a competition or declared round score contravenes the players responsibilities under the rules of handicapping.

Ignoring non-submission of scores contravenes the handicap committee's responsibilities under the rules of handicapping.

And can affect the PCC and indirectly other player's handicaps.

 

[Swango1980]

What about it ? Doesnt change the point - how many people do you actually believe are going to do it deliberately?

Why does having WHS make a difference ?



Nothing is “ignored” - the player is DQ from the competition- simple

As for the “affecting” everyone’s handicap- the affect is minimal , in olden terms it was treated as just missing the buffer , what difference do you think one missing scorecard makes

Are you saying people do not deliberately? You mean they were completely unaware that they didn't play the last few holes?

The WHS says nothing about disciplining players ONLY if they NR to purposely increase their handicap. WHS makes a HUGE difference, hence post Number 11 was taken directly out of the WHS manual.

If you had a very low handicapper, who simply wanted to keep their handicap low, what would you do if they continually NRed every time they started a round poorly? Nothing, or would you punish them? If you were to punish them, then would you not be consistent and punish a higher handicapper for doing the same?

Under CONGU a player would get a 0,1 increase, fine (assuming you didn't completely ignore them). Doesn't happen under WHS, that is why it is an issue.

 

[wjemather]

Nothing is “ignored” - the player is DQ from the competition- simple

As for the “affecting” everyone’s handicap- the affect is minimal , in olden terms it was treated as just missing the buffer , what difference do you think one missing scorecard makes

The DQ from the competition is irrelevant for handicapping. Without the score being submitted, the handicap committee are required to try and establish the actual scores (e.g. by looking for playing partners cards) and potentially applying a penalty score - all this is extra work for these volunteers.

Just one missing scorecard can make a one stroke difference in the PCC, and thereby affect everybody else's handicap record who played the course that day (including those not in the competition). At the extremes, one missing score can also affect the application of exceptional score reductions.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Are you saying people do not deliberately? You mean they were completely unaware that they didn't play the last few holes?

The WHS says nothing about disciplining players ONLY if they NR to purposely increase their handicap. WHS makes a HUGE difference, hence post Number 11 was taken directly out of the WHS manual.

If you had a very low handicapper, who simply wanted to keep their handicap low, what would you do if they continually NRed every time they started a round poorly? Nothing, or would you punish them? If you were to punish them, then would you not be consistent and punish a higher handicapper for doing the same?

Under CONGU a player would get a 0,1 increase, fine (assuming you didn't completely ignore them). Doesn't happen under WHS, that is why it is an issue.

Have you ever proven someone has “deliberately” not entered a card ?

Also why would someone deliberately not enter their card - if it’s a really bad round then it’s makes no difference , if it’s a superb round then they are going to make sure they submit

And if a Low Handicapper NRs then why would it keep his Handicap Low ?

Do you not trust your fellow members and golfers ?

The DQ from the competition is irrelevant for handicapping. Without the score being submitted, the handicap committee are required to try and establish the actual scores (e.g. by looking for playing partners cards) and potentially applying a penalty score - all this is extra work for these volunteers.

Just one missing scorecard can make a one stroke difference in the PCC, and thereby affect everybody else's handicap record who played the course that day (including those not in the competition).

How much affect do you really think one missing scorecard will have ? People’s handicaps are going to be affected by someone not putting their scorecard in - seen it happy plenty of times and seen it have zero affect on anyone’s handicap

If someone doesn’t put their scorecard in - DQ and move on. There is no harden fast rule in regards not submitting a card and people need to understand the level we are all playing it and why we are playing.

 

[wjemather]

Have you ever proven someone has “deliberately” not entered a card ?

Also why would someone deliberately not enter their card - if it’s a really bad round then it’s makes no difference , if it’s a superb round then they are going to make sure they submit

And if a Low Handicapper NRs then why would it keep his Handicap Low ?

Do you not trust your fellow members and golfers ?

Submitting your card after a round is an automatic routine. Most people who don't enter them do so deliberately, mostly because they believe they "aren't going to win anything, so what's the point". Very few truly forget.

By not summitting a bad score that would push a good round out of their last 20 scores, someone can keep their handicap index artificially low.