Kellfire
Blackballed
No because we know now that we can revoke Article 50 and remain.
MPs Brexit Options
- Thread starter ColchesterFC
- Start date
No because we know now that we can revoke Article 50 and remain.
Kellfire
Blackballed
You don’t know what democracy is. I do. That’s the difference.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
Thats a diversion. You are saying the referendum was not legally binding to support your view that its not law. The act I quoted was made to respect the outcome of the referendum and enshrine it in law. And, we cannot revoke article 50 without revoking the EU Withdraw act first.
Jamesbrown
Head Pro
Why would parliament do that? That wouldn’t benefit the two parties that will want seats in parliament, and goes against what the majority of what the electorate voted for.
People will vote for less favourable parties out of protest. It’s not in our interest or parliaments to revoke.
Dibby
Assistant Pro
I'm curious, what choice is that?
The way I see it, there isn't actually a mandate for anything. Boiling down a whole variety of options into leave or remain created this mess.
Of those who voted remain, some wanted more integration (ideally a federal Europe), some wanted as we are, and some wanted to stay and reform.
Of those who voted leave, some wanted a full blown no deal cut all ties exit, and some wanted a much softer exit, with a whole spectrum of options in between.
To put it to an analogy, imagine you are with a group of mates, and start getting hungry. You have previously agreed that you are not going to split up and will do everything together. However, 4 of you want to stay in and have roast chicken, 3 of you want to stay in and have roast beef, 1 of you wants to stay in and have beans on toast, 4 of you want to go to a curry house, 3 of you want to go to the pizza place, and 2 of you wants McDonalds. So you decide to settle it with a vote "Eat in" or "Eat out". The eating out option wins 9-8, problem solved. Except it's not, because still no one agrees where you would go to eat, you could vote on the most popular individual option instead, but even then, no one option is more popular than any other, and any given option has more people against it than for it.
How to solve the mess, I don't know, but it's not as simple as some people would like to claim.
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
Your arrogance knows no bounds.
cookelad
Tour Winner
A great analogy!
As you've said it was a very black and white question that was asked when there were varying levels of grey to be addressed, of course if they'd asked the question with all the various options they'd have got nowhere near the 50.1% majority they asked for.
Personally I don't see the situation resolving itself for a very long time, unless either the UK or the EU falls on their backside completely, if the UK and the EU both flourish remainers will claim the UK would have flourished further had we remained while leavers will claim its because we didn't and there will continue to be no solid proof either way.
The options were too divisive and there wasn't a clear majority to put it to bed, whichever way the result had fallen half of the population would have been unhappy but there's no way to put the cat in the bag now, even the middle ground which what most would try to aim for in most situations will not be out enough for those wanting the no deal option and it won't be in enough for most of the remainers.
I've not been on the Brexit thread but I can guess it's 3000pages of the same arguments going back and forth and nothing new being added so I'll continue to avoid.
need_my_wedge
Has Now Found His Wedgie
I thought democracy supposed to be fluid? I voted remain, and was thinking we should honour the result and just get on with it and leave. However, as Dibby says, the mess we're in is not that simple to solve. I think that's fairly obvious from the fact that they couldn't even come up with an agreement on one of 8 options put forward yesterday. The above example is simplistic, but does sum it up for me. What if the options are simplified even further, the friends narrow down to two restauarants on a 9-8 vote, but two days before they are due to meet at the restaurant, the local paper reveals that the agreed restaurant is at the centre of a hygiene problem. Traces of human faeces have been found in the food, we can all still go and eat in the chosen restaurant.... or we can re-evaluate our options because the thought of eating that steak I was going to eat is now somewhat unpallatable? If we decide to re-evaluate, it would likely need another vote to decide a new restaurant. As I said, it's a simplistic example, maybe too simplistic, but it does reflect the situation we're in now. You are allowed to change your mind, especially if the detail you voted on has changed. The EU are unlikley to change the deal offered, why would they? For something that is clearly going to have a massive impact on the future of the UK, and very likely not provide the rewards expected, it would be a lot more prudent to look again before blindly insisting that the restaurant we're going to eat in will be fine.
in my opinion, this is a perfect example of how brexit will affect the UK
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
I like this analogy but what’ll happen in the real world is;
- Despite the agreement to stick together some will renege & choose to stay in and cause a split among the group with a bit of animosity thrown in (they’ll settle for having beans on toast imagining the rest of the group will feel guilty for forcing them to stay in… but they don’t) This animosity will impact future group plans even though they aren’t related to the original get together
- Some who wanted to stay will go out but with some reluctance and determined they won’t enjoy it anyway with a bit of animosity thrown in, so will sit apart and take little to do with what’s going on except to shout down any suggestions of where to eat
- All those that do go out will end up in the nearest pub first under the guise that they’ll choose what to do ‘once they’re out’ but at least when their out they can start enjoying just being out
- However once out they realise the pub the environment isn’t conducive to any meaningful discussion and no decisive plans are even made on what to do until it’s too late and they’re forced to take whatever is still open
- Everyone realises this fact at different times then attempts to fill up on nuts and crisps which they all know are not sustainable and as time passes some of those who went out when they really wanted to stay in, head back home, feeling they did their bit in agreeing to go out and it’s not their fault it didn’t work and they predicted this wouldn’t end well and they agree they got nothing from going out
- At the 11th hour the remainder of the group who wanted to go out & who by now are happily intoxicated by being out, end up getting takeaway kebabs which ironically wasn’t on anyone’s list but since it’s all they can get they snap it up and head home dropping half of it in the gutter. As a nice gesture (they think) they also get a big bag of chips intending to share with those back home but by then they’re cold and some idiot put kebab sauce on them anyway, this is just money wasted as no one will touch them and they’re left to make a stain on the coffee table
- Everyone’s back home and those that got a bit carried away wake up the rest of the house with tales of ’how freakin great was that! And ‘we must do it again’ while singing Rule Britannia and animosity levels reach new heights that’ll have long lasting repercussions
- In the morning the house is untidy and stinks of stale drink & kebabs plus the unfortunate mess when someone didn’t make it to the loo in time before throwing up in the hallway
- An immigrant eastern European working as a maid comes in and cleans up the physical mess but can’t do anything about the sore heads and damaged relationships (& it seems nothing gets the kebab sauce stain out of the coffee table so the deposit is lost)
When they tell their grandkids about it in 30 years they’ll make it seem like it was as meaningful as the Tolpuddle Martyrs met the suffragettes to decide whether to eat in or out!
Kellfire
Blackballed
It isn’t arrogance when all the evidence proves what I’ve claimed.
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
We all know that democracy is a fluid concept (representative democracy, direct democracy etc etc) that people will bend the definition of to suit their argument. And to be honest if your particular version of democracy is the only argument you have for doing something then I'd expect a bit more to convince me. Especially when that argument is being used to justify a hard brexit.
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
Talking to other people that you know nothing about and stating they don't know things that you do IS arrogant. And nobody is disagreeing with what you are saying but you are disagreeing with what they are saying. Everyone knows that a manifesto is not legally binding but it is a document stating what that party intends to do and if they have any decency they should adhere to it.
You have a knack of trying to put people down, it isn't a very nice character trait.
Kellfire
Blackballed
Again, you're confusing things. Decency is irrelevant, it seems. MPs, overall, believe the best thing to do for the country is to remain. But they're going ahead with leave because they're protecting their own interests in seeking re-election. The decent thing to do would be to make the best decisions for their constituents, even if it is against their will.
Decency plays little part in Brexit because leaving is synonymous with indecency.
As for me putting people down, it's hard not to do when I (at best) am dismayed with the ignorance shown to the situation by anyone who backs leaving the EU especially now that we've seen the negative impact it's having on the country. In 2016 it was more forgivable because those who were going to vote leave were shielded from the reality, but now we're surrounded by the evidence that it's going to be a net negative for the UK but people are still digging in and defending their original decision when the "decent" thing to do would be to hold their hands up and say, "My bad, I didn't know the full picture, now I do and I accept we should remain".
But human nature is to be entrenched in your original position and never shift from it. Admitting this sort of mistake is difficult, it makes people feel weak.
And I say this as someone who used to be a staunch unionist/Tory supporter in my younger days, before I considered what was better for the general good of the population.
Grant85
Head Pro
Big problems with almost every solution.
The Ken Clarke Customs Union option is possibly the one that a flexible government could try and find a majority for. Unfortunately we have an inflexible, incompetent government who will only pander to the little Englander members & MPs who don't want too many foreigners.
The problem with both the Conservative and Labour parties is that they have too many red lines that aren't compatible.
The Tories want to preserve the Union, but ultimately are cutting NI adrift (at least economically) meaning it will be more closely aligned to RoI than the UK.
Labour want a jobs 1st customs union, but won't admit that they also want an end to Free Movement (in order to protect some marginal Brexity seats). Something that the EU will not agree to.
Ultimately it is impossible to leave the EU completely without cutting NI adrift, or breaching the good Friday agreement.
A Customs Union would deliver on the referendum result and is probably a fair compromise given it was a 48 / 52 split. It would placate a reasonable number of Leave voters who now realise the challenges associated with Brexit, that were certainly not clear in June 2016. But it would leave a hardcore of ERG / UKIP / Brexit at all costs people. The Tories know it would be almost impossible for them to win a majority without keeping this lot onside - hence the government has adopted this position of inflexibility and are doing precisely NOTHING productive to try and get 326 votes for SOMETHING.
The Ken Clarke Customs Union option is possibly the one that a flexible government could try and find a majority for. Unfortunately we have an inflexible, incompetent government who will only pander to the little Englander members & MPs who don't want too many foreigners.
The problem with both the Conservative and Labour parties is that they have too many red lines that aren't compatible.
The Tories want to preserve the Union, but ultimately are cutting NI adrift (at least economically) meaning it will be more closely aligned to RoI than the UK.
Labour want a jobs 1st customs union, but won't admit that they also want an end to Free Movement (in order to protect some marginal Brexity seats). Something that the EU will not agree to.
Ultimately it is impossible to leave the EU completely without cutting NI adrift, or breaching the good Friday agreement.
A Customs Union would deliver on the referendum result and is probably a fair compromise given it was a 48 / 52 split. It would placate a reasonable number of Leave voters who now realise the challenges associated with Brexit, that were certainly not clear in June 2016. But it would leave a hardcore of ERG / UKIP / Brexit at all costs people. The Tories know it would be almost impossible for them to win a majority without keeping this lot onside - hence the government has adopted this position of inflexibility and are doing precisely NOTHING productive to try and get 326 votes for SOMETHING.
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
So what you are basically saying is that anyone who supports brexit is ignorant.
I rest my case about you being arrogant.
chrisd
Major Champion
No
Ignorant and quite wrong too I'd say
Ignorant and quite wrong too I'd say
Kellfire
Blackballed
Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. We know that Brexit will have negative effects overall on the UK. No one would want that so ignorance is the only possible reason.
Stop being so easily triggered when someone points out your lack of knowledge. I wouldn’t get in a tizz if someone told me I didn’t understand jet propulsion, nuclear fission or orbital interactions.
robinthehood
Hacker
to be fair, some of the stuff ive seen and read in the threads on here that people believe about being in the EU that is total BS is shocking.
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
In your view. Not mine. I also think there are large financial risks associated with remain which are brushed under the carpet.
Kellfire
Blackballed
Such as? Financially is the one area where we can basically show beyond all doubt the country will be worse off!
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