Spuddy
Challenge Tour Pro
An average golfer using a DMD will not always hit it that exact distance but it will enable them to choose the club that'll give them the highest percentage chance of getting it as close as possible.
Mobile phone legal or not?
- Thread starter palindromicbob
- Start date
An average golfer using a DMD will not always hit it that exact distance but it will enable them to choose the club that'll give them the highest percentage chance of getting it as close as possible.
palindromicbob
Tour Winner
And that is the reason they are popular. It helps remove the doubt.
If it's 130 front 145 middle and 160 back you know that a nice steady swing of something you average 140ish with will give you a good chance.
Anyway. Can anyone think of anything else to be added or disagree with anything up there already?
Foxholer
Blackballed
What makes you think having a barometer sensor make it non-compliant?
atticusfinch
Challenge Tour Pro
A change of barometric pressure has an effect on wind. So too the density of air. (Ever hit a ball in Colorado Springs?)
14-3/0.5
Local Rule Permitting Use of Distance-Measuring Device
Q.May a Committee, by Local Rule, permit the use of distance-measuring devices?
A.Yes. A Committee may establish a Local Rule allowing players to use devices that measure or gauge distance only (see the Note to Rule 14-3). However, the use of a distance-measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect a player's play (e.g., gradient, wind speed, temperature, etc.) is not permitted regardless of whether such an additional function is used.
14-3/0.5
Local Rule Permitting Use of Distance-Measuring Device
Q.May a Committee, by Local Rule, permit the use of distance-measuring devices?
A.Yes. A Committee may establish a Local Rule allowing players to use devices that measure or gauge distance only (see the Note to Rule 14-3). However, the use of a distance-measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect a player's play (e.g., gradient, wind speed, temperature, etc.) is not permitted regardless of whether such an additional function is used.
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duncan mackie
Money List Winner
air pressure has a direct impact on the flight of the ball in exactly the same way as temperature
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SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Indeed - why the ball flies a long way when playing at altitude - and spin will also be affected
Foxholer
Blackballed
I'm not disputing that - it all comes down to Physics after all!
But as it's not specifically noted - unlike anemometer or thermometer - it's something that should be checked out, rather than just stating device is non-conforming. Has that happened?
Another Rules specialist, elsewhere - has stated that 'The barometer is not a problem, only wind and temperature'!
Is this the 'other environmental factors' referred to in 14-3/16?
Martin70
Head Pro
I did quite a bit of reading on this last month before buying a Garmin watch instead.
Not trying to throw a spanner in the works here so sorry if this is incorrect but what I read mostly was that if the phone has an app in it that even tells you the temperature then it is illegal whether you open that app or not
Not trying to throw a spanner in the works here so sorry if this is incorrect but what I read mostly was that if the phone has an app in it that even tells you the temperature then it is illegal whether you open that app or not
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
And they say that one of the best things about golf is that you have to manage your uncertainty - and being able to do so well marks out the good player from the poorer one. But hey - that was all a bit hard
That said I am serenely in acceptance of DMDs (though still feel they shouldn't be allowed in closed own-club comps - but I know that that is just me :thup
Foxholer
Blackballed
If the App works purely from info from the device, then Yes.That's because it proves that there is a Temperature Sensor on the device - which makes it non-conforming. In that case, the App doesn't even need to be on the device. There are, however, Temperature Apps that use add-on hardware to get the temperature - eg for the Iphone.
If, however, the 'temperature' is obtained from an internet based weather forecast App, that does not, in itself, make the device non-conforming.
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atticusfinch
Challenge Tour Pro
I'd like to know who that is. His statement is contrary to the rule which says: Note: The Committee may make a Local Rule allowing players to use devices that measure or gauge distance only.
The word "only" is important. If the device measures anything other than distance the rule has been violated.
CheltenhamHacker
Journeyman Pro
And they say that one of the best things about golf is that you have to manage your uncertainty - and being able to do so well marks out the good player from the poorer one. But hey - that was all a bit hard
Who is this "they", is this the same people that told you about HNSP?
(can of worms.... )
Martin70
Head Pro
Ok that makes sense good answer. My club ban phones on the course barring emergencies anyway so I took the guessing out of it and got a watch
rulefan
Tour Winner
No mention of a barometer on the R&A website but there may have been direct contact between the poster and the ruling bodies.
But I suspect that a barometer fits in with the spirit level classification.
On the course, subject to any club or course regulations, a multi-functional device may be used to phone, text, email or to look up general information, provided the purpose is not a breach of the Rules,e.g. you cannot make a phone call to ask for advice.
When an application that measures distance has been downloaded to the device, the application must be restricted to providing only distance information in order to conform to the Local Rule. If there are other features or applications on the phone that can specifically gauge o rmeasure conditions that might affect the player’s play, such as an anemometer or thermometer, this would render the device non-conforming for use as a distance-measuring device, regardless of the fact that these other features or applications are used or not.
Accessing weather reports provided by a weather station through an app or internet browser, is not considered to be actively measuring or gauging the conditions and is permissible.
Q. My smartphone has an inbuilt spirit level as part of the functionality of the phone but it is not part of the distance-measuring app. Can I use the phone as a distance-measuring device?
Yes, provided that you do not use the level in a manner that might assist you in your play.
But I suspect that a barometer fits in with the spirit level classification.
On the course, subject to any club or course regulations, a multi-functional device may be used to phone, text, email or to look up general information, provided the purpose is not a breach of the Rules,e.g. you cannot make a phone call to ask for advice.
When an application that measures distance has been downloaded to the device, the application must be restricted to providing only distance information in order to conform to the Local Rule. If there are other features or applications on the phone that can specifically gauge o rmeasure conditions that might affect the player’s play, such as an anemometer or thermometer, this would render the device non-conforming for use as a distance-measuring device, regardless of the fact that these other features or applications are used or not.
Accessing weather reports provided by a weather station through an app or internet browser, is not considered to be actively measuring or gauging the conditions and is permissible.
Q. My smartphone has an inbuilt spirit level as part of the functionality of the phone but it is not part of the distance-measuring app. Can I use the phone as a distance-measuring device?
Yes, provided that you do not use the level in a manner that might assist you in your play.
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HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
Just a thought, and possibly not a completely thought through thought...
As far as I can tell, the problem with using mobile phones as DMDs is not that the app itself, e.g. golfshot, but that the phone may have features that could, if accessed, enhance golfshot to provide illegal information. As long as golfshot (or other app) doesn't utilise those features\sensors, who really cares if they are there? It's not like they are any use to anyone.
As far as I can tell, the problem with using mobile phones as DMDs is not that the app itself, e.g. golfshot, but that the phone may have features that could, if accessed, enhance golfshot to provide illegal information. As long as golfshot (or other app) doesn't utilise those features\sensors, who really cares if they are there? It's not like they are any use to anyone.
Foxholer
Blackballed
That's another peculiar/inconsistent area. Why doesn't that also apply to Thermometer and Anemometer? And, of course Barometer.
I suspect that it's the (in)ability to observe the particular sensor's use, which would put the Barometer in the non-compliant camp.
The 'trust to not use the feature' v observation is a bit of issue with the likes of Golfshot too - with the use of some features of the App being illegal - some of the retained Distance info for example.
No direct contact from me to R&A. AF/USGA?
palindromicbob
Tour Winner
I have emailed the R&A to clarify though but until they reply I think the safest option is to assume they do not conform. But lets keep debate flowing and soon we should dig down to definitive answers (like we usually seem to manage in this section of the forum)
The logic I have used when trying to consider a device with regards to the rules is also taking the flowchart into consideration.
First part considers the application so is not specfic to the device, therefore all devices pass that part.
Second part is relevant to the device.
The important parts are in bold. anemometer and thermometer are only examples.
The barometer can be used to measure airpressure at the exact location (unlike data from weather app which is for generalised area).
Most club golfer would not benifit from knowing exact pressure but it might assist an others if they had access to this data.
With regards to temp for most of us it is simply warm = ball further.
Same with humidity less humid = ball further
For a golfer with more accuarracy and knowledge they might know that at 10-12 degrees with 50% humitity a 7i goes X but at 13-15 degrees a 7i goes Y and at 16-18 a 7i goes Z.
Hence I would think that access to air pressure data might also assist things for some golfers.
As for golf shot this thread has raised some questions. I will probably change it's status slightly on the spreadsheet when I get home.
Accessing historical data such as club yardages from previous rounds on a electronic device is ok. Decision 14-3/16.
But what makes things confusing is what do the rules consider to be interpreting or processing? Do they class calculating averages classes as processing?
No Breech:
Using the device to access (but not interpret or process) playing information from previous rounds (e.g. driving distances, individual club yardages, etc); or
Breech:
Using the device to interpret or process any playing information obtained from current or previous rounds (e.g. driving distances, individual club yardages, etc.)
The logic I have used when trying to consider a device with regards to the rules is also taking the flowchart into consideration.
First part considers the application so is not specfic to the device, therefore all devices pass that part.
R&A said:
Second part is relevant to the device.
R&A said:
The important parts are in bold. anemometer and thermometer are only examples.
The barometer can be used to measure airpressure at the exact location (unlike data from weather app which is for generalised area).
Most club golfer would not benifit from knowing exact pressure but it might assist an others if they had access to this data.
With regards to temp for most of us it is simply warm = ball further.
Same with humidity less humid = ball further
For a golfer with more accuarracy and knowledge they might know that at 10-12 degrees with 50% humitity a 7i goes X but at 13-15 degrees a 7i goes Y and at 16-18 a 7i goes Z.
Hence I would think that access to air pressure data might also assist things for some golfers.
As for golf shot this thread has raised some questions. I will probably change it's status slightly on the spreadsheet when I get home.
Accessing historical data such as club yardages from previous rounds on a electronic device is ok. Decision 14-3/16.
But what makes things confusing is what do the rules consider to be interpreting or processing? Do they class calculating averages classes as processing?
No Breech:
Using the device to access (but not interpret or process) playing information from previous rounds (e.g. driving distances, individual club yardages, etc); or
Breech:
Using the device to interpret or process any playing information obtained from current or previous rounds (e.g. driving distances, individual club yardages, etc.)
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Foxholer
Blackballed
That seems fine.
However, I heard a story about the creation of the newest flowchart that doesn't fill me with confidence on their ability to provide a definitive, unambiguous, answer. I hope they do though!
However, I heard a story about the creation of the newest flowchart that doesn't fill me with confidence on their ability to provide a definitive, unambiguous, answer. I hope they do though!
palindromicbob
Tour Winner
So do I. If a decision is given in respect to the flowchart then it should be a yes or a no either way.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Who is this "they", is this the same people that told you about HNSP?
(can of worms.... )
'They' perhaps including the likes of all authors of golf psychology/thinking books who seem to think that managing uncertainty in your head is pretty darned important to being able to play well and to your ability. And as these books seem to sell well then there must be plenty of us out there who ascribe to that notion.
