IanM
Journeyman Pro
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Was the lawyer appropriately dressed?
Membership cost increase
- Thread starter Genu9
- Start date
Was the lawyer appropriately dressed?
SurreyGolfer
Active member
Going to side-step the shoe discussion and just pick up on the membership fees for different ages/genders that's been mentioned several pages ago. People are confusing 'discounted fees for <group x> because they can't afford it' with 'we recognise there is a benefit to the club to have more of <group x> as members therefore we need to do something about it.'
There will be wealthy ladies, young people, seniors and there will be those who are less well off also in those age groups, it's not about that. It's about what is the best business sense for the club, i.e:
- a club may decide to discount fees for young persons because they've done a cost-benefit analysis and the figures stack up that someone who joins at 25 on a discounted rate actually generates more revenue for the club over the long-term than someone who joins at 35 on full whack
- a club may decide to discount fees for ladies because they recognise that a strong ladies section is reputationally good for a club or because ya know, it was pretty fricken stupid in hindsight to not let ladies play golf well into the 20th century. So why not just accept we might need to give this section a boost once in a while like a bit of a discount or *shock* their own tee times!
It's not about what groups can/cannot afford it. It's about (relative) under-representation and/or the business benefits of attracting different groups to a club. I'm a 35yr old man, there won't be many promotional offers for me......and I'm ok with that.
There will be wealthy ladies, young people, seniors and there will be those who are less well off also in those age groups, it's not about that. It's about what is the best business sense for the club, i.e:
- a club may decide to discount fees for young persons because they've done a cost-benefit analysis and the figures stack up that someone who joins at 25 on a discounted rate actually generates more revenue for the club over the long-term than someone who joins at 35 on full whack
- a club may decide to discount fees for ladies because they recognise that a strong ladies section is reputationally good for a club or because ya know, it was pretty fricken stupid in hindsight to not let ladies play golf well into the 20th century. So why not just accept we might need to give this section a boost once in a while like a bit of a discount or *shock* their own tee times!
It's not about what groups can/cannot afford it. It's about (relative) under-representation and/or the business benefits of attracting different groups to a club. I'm a 35yr old man, there won't be many promotional offers for me......and I'm ok with that.
hovis
Tour Winner
Of course it stacks up. Yes my trainers are expensive but I have multiple uses for them on a daily basis. I have zero need in my life for a pair of shoes. I would literally have to go out and buy a pair of shoes so I can eat food in specific golf clubs.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
I wonder if we knew the origin of the decision to add what now appears to be a silly/outdated rule, if it’d be better accepted rather than just the ‘that’s their rule so follow it’ … It might also show up the rules at particular clubs that are due/overdue for removal
I usually make up a backstory for some of these anyway…
Club ABC had Colonel Mustard or Wing Commander ‘Tiger’ Moth Rtd, as chairman (because no one outranked him) and being a chap that’s had dress-codes/uniforms/rules since his first day at school he can’t be surrounded by free radicals in his retirement, so he insists on his ‘troops’ (as he sees them) following xyx club rule involving where to change or what to wear etc at the golf club. He passed many many moons ago but while there’s still a living member who knew him then his rules will live on as a legacy
Or
Club DEF had the upstairs function hall redecorated for the Queens Silver Jubilee in 77’ and spent most of the clubs reserve on a nice faux paisley Axminister and they’ll be dammed if they don’t get full life expectancy from it, so no hobnail or heavy treaded boots are ever to be worn in that room because of the extra stress/wear on the wool, and when trainers with their thick tread soles boomed in the 80’s they got lumped in with that rule
I usually make up a backstory for some of these anyway…
Club ABC had Colonel Mustard or Wing Commander ‘Tiger’ Moth Rtd, as chairman (because no one outranked him) and being a chap that’s had dress-codes/uniforms/rules since his first day at school he can’t be surrounded by free radicals in his retirement, so he insists on his ‘troops’ (as he sees them) following xyx club rule involving where to change or what to wear etc at the golf club. He passed many many moons ago but while there’s still a living member who knew him then his rules will live on as a legacy
Or
Club DEF had the upstairs function hall redecorated for the Queens Silver Jubilee in 77’ and spent most of the clubs reserve on a nice faux paisley Axminister and they’ll be dammed if they don’t get full life expectancy from it, so no hobnail or heavy treaded boots are ever to be worn in that room because of the extra stress/wear on the wool, and when trainers with their thick tread soles boomed in the 80’s they got lumped in with that rule
100% this. People don't walk into clubs, ask to see a dress code and then announce that they will not play golf because of it. They see and hear stories and then decide not to bother, take up another sport, plenty of them about. People don't need to flounce off making a song and dance, they make the decision quietly.
r0wly86
Head Pro
sorry but some people are either not getting it or being deliberately obtuse when it comes to indirect discrimination
not at all the same thing, for the record I am not saying the dress code is indirect discrimination, just explaining how it works, that just because a policy is applied to everyone doesn't mean that it cannot be discriminatory.
I am not saying that not being able to afford golf or yachting or even a Ferrari is discriminatory, but there could be other policies that affect one group of people in a worse way. Dress code has been shown in case law to potentially have the effect of indirect discrimination, so just because you cannot see it being the case doesn't mean it isn't.
Golf is not a luxury sport, yes you can spend pretty much infinite amounts if you really want to, but you can also pay very little to enjoy the sport
not at all the same thing, for the record I am not saying the dress code is indirect discrimination, just explaining how it works, that just because a policy is applied to everyone doesn't mean that it cannot be discriminatory.
I am not saying that not being able to afford golf or yachting or even a Ferrari is discriminatory, but there could be other policies that affect one group of people in a worse way. Dress code has been shown in case law to potentially have the effect of indirect discrimination, so just because you cannot see it being the case doesn't mean it isn't.
Golf is not a luxury sport, yes you can spend pretty much infinite amounts if you really want to, but you can also pay very little to enjoy the sport
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Let’s see the survey results about why people aren’t playing golf ?
Anytime that there are surveys from clubs and governing bodies the mains reasons for leaving clubs or stopping golf are always the same
Cost
Time
Injury
Moving homes
Anytime someone has left our club I can’t ever recall a reason being “I can’t play without my shirt tucked in”
There will always be a small minority who don’t like a dress code or don’t take up the sport because of preconceived images but how many actually stop playing because of , how many actually go - I’m not going to take up golf because of what people wear
A loud minority in a small vessel doesn’t mean there are plenty of people not taking up the sport because of image issues
it’s the same on here - always the small minority going on about dress codes etc etc
How many of the people will still go to a Sunningdale or a RSG or Troon or indeed any club that has a dress code of sorts - 99% of them
it’s Always cost and time as the two main reason people don’t take up golf
Right now golf clubs being full to the brim across the country is showing that golf is doing well
Orikoru
Tour Winner
So defensive when you don't have an answer for something. ? You dismissed the idea of someone not being able to afford a smart of shoes, so I offered another valid reason why somebody might not want to wear them.
Bdill93
Undisputed King of FOMO
We've not even started the hoodies on course discussion yet! 
PJ87
Journeyman Pro
D
Deleted member 29109
Guest
Didn’t RSG let the pros play practice rounds in shorts without long socks?
Golfnut1957
Newbie
Nice try, this now a shoe thread.
And like LIV, they'll go round and round in circles, no quarter given.
Your point relates to people leaving or stopping golf. I, and others, are pointing out why people don't take up the sport in the first place. It is a drip drip effect, an image issue.
I've heard it many times when I started to play, no golfers in my wider family, and from my sons friends when he started to play.
hovis
Tour Winner
I have lost count of the amount of people that have said "is golf still actually like that"
When I'm around non golfers I actually get embarrassed to say I am a golfer
My playing partner recently went on a date (he's 48). When she's asked what he liked to do he didn't mention golf ?. He told me after "I didn't want her to think I was a knob"
Golfnut1957
Newbie
You need to grow a set then and stop worrying about what other people think.
It's a shame when you need to defend your hobby through no fault of your own.
D-S
Well-known member
It is really difficult to get rid of the image though.
My club has allowed jeans and trainers in the clubhouse for the past 10 years or so, same with changing shoes in the car par, hoodies are allows etc. etc.. However the other day when asked where I played someone in the conversation said that it was a stuffy club as they knew someone who was thrown off my course for wearing short socks - I’ve been a member for just under 30 years and trainer style socks have always been allowed (I wouldn’t have joined - in the mid 90s - if long socks were obligatory). However the club was being blamed for issues over 30 years ago -I’ve no idea how this sort of pre conceived misperception can be changed if people are going to hold on to the their prejudices for ever.
My club has allowed jeans and trainers in the clubhouse for the past 10 years or so, same with changing shoes in the car par, hoodies are allows etc. etc.. However the other day when asked where I played someone in the conversation said that it was a stuffy club as they knew someone who was thrown off my course for wearing short socks - I’ve been a member for just under 30 years and trainer style socks have always been allowed (I wouldn’t have joined - in the mid 90s - if long socks were obligatory). However the club was being blamed for issues over 30 years ago -I’ve no idea how this sort of pre conceived misperception can be changed if people are going to hold on to the their prejudices for ever.
PJ87
Journeyman Pro
I think the best course of action is right your fees are going up x % but to make sure everyone gets with the programme we will provide you with a free pair of £20 shoes from shoe zone to be worn after the round
PJ87
Journeyman Pro
Has your club fallen apart and been taken over by the local riff raff in that time?
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
My point is also in regards to why people don’t take it up as well from scratch
You can keep blaming the image etc but it’s a minority reason why people don’t start to play golf - time and cost will always been the two main reasons.
Do you really ? Why ? Maybe it’s because you’re portraying a generic image of the sport that you apply to all when it’s always the minority- there are stuffy people in all walks of life and there will always be a very small amount of clubs that are stuffy but that’s not how the majority of clubs are
maybe you should portray that message instead - there is a golf club to fit every single persons needs both financially and “image” wise - golf over the last ten years and even more so during the pandemic opened its doors to everyone who wanted to play the sport there are many clubs with no barriers , you now have people bashing on the door to join a club
