Membership cost increase

[SteveW86]

I have done that before actually - just sit in the passenger seat and change them there. I do wonder if that's an acceptable loophole or not, lol.

On more than one occasion I have just fully got changed in my car. trousers, shirt the lot.

 

[hovis]

Actually I have found cliques and petty rule enforcement pretty much unique to golf clubs. I have played and visited rugby clubs, cricket clubs and other sporting clubs the length and breadth of the country and have had none of the experiences that I have had with golf clubs. Never been to a rugby club where they cared where I changed my boots and they carry far more mud than a golf shoe. I will honestly say that golf, in my experience is almost totally unique in the level of petty rules, poor attitudes to families and women and I have heard more racist, sexist and other phobic comments as part of normal conversation in golf clubhouses than I have heard in the baudiest of rugby clubs.

I have to agree. Not seen in other areas like fishing clubs, skydiving clubs and rugby clubs. There's one glaringly obvious reason why......... Grumpy old people setting the rules for other people that join and become indoctrinated. Round and round the wheel we go

 

[Deleted member 1418]

On more than one occasion I have just fully got changed in my car. trousers, shirt the lot.

Yeah but these exchanges have been about at the golf club and not at the morning school run..........!!

 

[GB72]

I have to agree. Not seen in other areas like fishing clubs, skydiving clubs and rugby clubs. There's one glaringly obvious reason why......... Grumpy old people setting the rules for other people that join and become indoctrinated. Round and round the wheel we go

Always found rugby clubs to be run to suit and help everyone and to encourage families and friends to come up as well. Golf clubs I have always felt were being run for the benefit or certain people, families were certainly not welcome, sometimes tolerated and clique and empire building seemed to be an accepted hobby amongst the membership.

Hell, at more than one rugby club I have changed from rugby kit into full dinner jacket in the car park let alone changed my shoes.

 

[r0wly86]

Actually I have found cliques and petty rule enforcement pretty much unique to golf clubs. I have played and visited rugby clubs, cricket clubs and other sporting clubs the length and breadth of the country and have had none of the experiences that I have had with golf clubs. Never been to a rugby club where they cared where I changed my boots and they carry far more mud than a golf shoe. I will honestly say that golf, in my experience is almost totally unique in the level of petty rules, poor attitudes to families and women and I have heard more racist, sexist and other phobic comments as part of normal conversation in golf clubhouses than I have heard in the baudiest of rugby clubs.

As someone deeply involved in rugby, captain, club captain and now coach. Rugby clubs have definitely had a toxic atmosphere in the past, it can be very inclusive people don't care what your colour or sexuality is if you turn up and play. But I have seen and heard some pretty horrible things in the clubhouse, and have been to lunches and dinner with people who played years ago and they can be very toxic.

However the difference is that the new generation of players that now run the club have very much changed that atmosphere. In my club rugby was for the men, they played then went out drinking all night, families were ignored on Saturdays. During my playing days that completely changed and became very family friendly as partners and children all came down, and made the atmosphere much more pleasant.

I guess the difference between rugby and golf, is that golf generally doesn't put the 20-30 year olds in charge so change is very very slow in comparison

 

[GB72]

As someone deeply involved in rugby, captain, club captain and now coach. Rugby clubs have definitely had a toxic atmosphere in the past, it can be very inclusive people don't care what your colour or sexuality is if you turn up and play. But I have seen and heard some pretty horrible things in the clubhouse, and have been to lunches and dinner with people who played years ago and they can be very toxic.

However the difference is that the new generation of players that now run the club have very much changed that atmosphere. In my club rugby was for the men, they played then went out drinking all night, families were ignored on Saturdays. During my playing days that completely changed and became very family friendly as partners and children all came down, and made the atmosphere much more pleasant.

I guess the difference between rugby and golf, is that golf generally doesn't put the 20-30 year olds in charge so change is very very slow in comparison

Fair point. Never found a toxic atmosphere but have seen the change to family friendly places. Agreed, we do have to remind a few of our older, ex players that we live in more enlightened times now and that some attitudes are no longer appropriate but they are picked up for it and questioned about it. As far as social attitudes go, golf clubs remind me of rugby clubs in the 80s.

What rugby never had was petty rules for the sake of rules, rules that divided people based on background and upbringing and a plethora of armchair generals just looking for the chance to belittle someone by enforcing them. Rugby clubs were run for all the members.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Actually I have found cliques and petty rule enforcement pretty much unique to golf clubs. I have played and visited rugby clubs, cricket clubs and other sporting clubs the length and breadth of the country and have had none of the experiences that I have had with golf clubs. Never been to a rugby club where they cared where I changed my boots and they carry far more mud than a golf shoe. I will honestly say that golf, in my experience is almost totally unique in the level of petty rules, poor attitudes to families and women and I have heard more racist, sexist and other phobic comments as part of normal conversation in golf clubhouses than I have heard in the baudiest of rugby clubs.

I think it’s clear you have had a poor experience at a golf club but I don’t think it’s right to be judging all golf clubs the same - I have witnessed the same poor behaviour at cricket , football and even hockey clubs - it’s not the clubs that are the issue it’s the people in them. There are always cliques etc when there are groups of people in those settings - golf clubs aren’t unique in that way

Many golf clubs are also working very hard to remove stigma’s associated with golf - there is a reason why the age of members is dropping dramatically over the years and why it’s going through a boom - everything from changing the fees , to access , to making it about families , golf clubs are doing their best to improve

It’s always a giggle when some really just go a bit overboard when it comes to changing shoes or dress codes etc - it’s as if they are the devil incarnate

I will always wonder what they would do when they visit other places that require dress codes etc

 

[r0wly86]

Fair point. Never found a toxic atmosphere but have seen the change to family friendly places. Agreed, we do have to remind a few of our older, ex players that we live in more enlightened times now and that some attitudes are no longer appropriate but they are picked up for it and questioned about it. As far as social attitudes go, golf clubs remind me of rugby clubs in the 80s.

What rugby never had was petty rules for the sake of rules, rules that divided people based on background and upbringing and a plethora of armchair generals just looking for the chance to belittle someone by enforcing them. Rugby clubs were run for all the members.

Very true, the only rules I can think of are for very good reasons, like don't clean your boots in the shower or sink as it block the drains, bit that's the difference, the rule is for an absolute reason

 

[GB72]

I think it’s clear you have had a poor experience at a golf club but I don’t think it’s right to be judging all golf clubs the same - I have witnessed the same poor behaviour at cricket , football and even hockey clubs - it’s not the clubs that are the issue it’s the people in them. There are always cliques etc when there are groups of people in those settings - golf clubs aren’t unique in that way

Many golf clubs are also working very hard to remove stigma’s associated with golf - there is a reason why the age of members is dropping dramatically over the years and why it’s going through a boom - everything from changing the fees , to access , to making it about families , golf clubs are doing their best to improve

It’s always a giggle when some really just go a bit overboard when it comes to changing shoes or dress codes etc - it’s as if they are the devil incarnate

I will always wonder what they would do when they visit other places that require dress codes etc

Nope, had the same experiece at the 5 golf clubs I have been a member off. With golf I honestly believe that it is the clubs and in many cases, a desire amonngst certain mements to maintain outdated 60s and 70s attitudes in and about golf clubs. I also disagree about the removal of the stigma attached to golf. I have seen much lip service paid to doing something but see plenty who are more than happy that golf remain elitist and that clubhouse remain a bastion of male dominance. In other clubs, if you were out of order, the players would have a word and if you were out of order twice then you would be politely put in the next available taxi. You question attitudes at a golf club and you get shouted down or blackballed as the establishment do not like to be challenged.

People get het up about these rules as they just support the petty, small minded nature of some people and the establishments involved. We have talked about having to cut fees to attract members under 30, has anyone thought that younger people do not want to be associated with golf clubs for many reasons other than cost.

 

[GB72]

Very true, the only rules I can think of are for very good reasons, like don't clean your boots in the shower or sink as it block the drains, bit that's the difference, the rule is for an absolute reason

I am of an age where we had to tell people not to clean their boots in the bath

 

[IanM]

I am going to start a thread about the possibility of Alien Invasion. How many pages before that mentions changing shoes in the car park??

 

[sunshine]

On more than one occasion I have just fully got changed in my car. trousers, shirt the lot.

That is quite a lot of effort to avoid the clubhouse.

What do you do when you need a poo? Just duck down behind your car and quickly curl one out? Or do you find a little grass verge?

 

[sunshine]

Life is full of 5 minutes, we choose what we do with them.

I genuinely love this. It is so true. It sounds like a quote from a ted talk.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I genuinely love this. It is so true. It sounds like a quote from a ted talk.

I did worry it sounded a bit pompous but I couldn't think of another way to word it

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Nope, had the same experiece at the 5 golf clubs I have been a member off. With golf I honestly believe that it is the clubs and in many cases, a desire amonngst certain mements to maintain outdated 60s and 70s attitudes in and about golf clubs. I also disagree about the removal of the stigma attached to golf. I have seen much lip service paid to doing something but see plenty who are more than happy that golf remain elitist and that clubhouse remain a bastion of male dominance. In other clubs, if you were out of order, the players would have a word and if you were out of order twice then you would be politely put in the next available taxi. You question attitudes at a golf club and you get shouted down or blackballed as the establishment do not like to be challenged.

People get het up about these rules as they just support the petty, small minded nature of some people and the establishments involved. We have talked about having to cut fees to attract members under 30, has anyone thought that younger people do not want to be associated with golf clubs for many reasons other than cost.

Sorry I’ll rephrase- I think it’s clear through the years that you clearly don’t like golf clubs and have had experiences at every one you join. I have only been a member at one and haven’t seen anything different that what you see when groups of blokes get together in any setting - and that’s been at plenty of other sports clubs , if you don’t see it at other clubs then would say you are very lucky , there are certainly been plenty of instances in the news local and National of other sports having the same - racist , sexist etc issues - just look at cricket right now

I have no doubt you will disagree with clubs trying to remove issues - but I can guarantee that’s it’s happening and there are lots of working streams for clubs to modernise

And yes there have been lots of surveys done talking to people both locally and nationally in regards why under 30’s didn’t play the game and cost , time are the two main reasons

I know that doesn’t sit with your idea that all golf clubs are the same but poor behaviour isn’t limited to golf clubs. It doesn’t take much searching to see issues within other sports clubs.

Rules are set within all walks of life - some may seem silly to one person and fine to the next - would always expect the bare minimum to be for someone to respect someone else’s rules providing they don’t break any laws and are not offensive

 

[GB72]

Sorry I’ll rephrase- I think it’s clear through the years that you clearly don’t like golf clubs and have had experiences at every one you join. I have only been a member at one and haven’t seen anything different that what you see when groups of blokes get together in any setting - and that’s been at plenty of other sports clubs , if you don’t see it at other clubs then would say you are very lucky , there are certainly been plenty of instances in the news local and National of other sports having the same - racist , sexist etc issues - just look at cricket right now

I have no doubt you will disagree with clubs trying to remove issues - but I can guarantee that’s it’s happening and there are lots of working streams for clubs to modernise

And yes there have been lots of surveys done talking to people both locally and nationally in regards why under 30’s didn’t play the game and cost , time are the two main reasons

I know that doesn’t sit with your idea that all golf clubs are the same but poor behaviour isn’t limited to golf clubs. It doesn’t take much searching to see issues within other sports clubs.

Rules are set within all walks of life - some may seem silly to one person and fine to the next - would always expect the bare minimum to be for someone to respect someone else’s rules providing they don’t break any laws and are not offensive

Not sure that 'well others are just as bad as us' is a decent debating point. My experience of golf clubs is that they are the worst for many social aspects but the membership in many cases do not see the problem. As awlays, lost of works streams, lots of meetings, lots of discussions, not much action. You look back at all sorts of threads where the argument is put that golf clubs are private and should be able to so what they want even in the face of mixed membership and other serious issues.

Rules are set withint all areas of life, I agree but they tend to be for a reason and not of the petty and inconsequential nature at golf clubs and when they are, they are questioned.

Still, as long as golf clubs want to measure themselves based on other being just as bad as they are (which I disagree wiht, I have never seen worse attitudes to women and families than at golf clubs) then that is fine.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Not sure that 'well others are just as bad as us' is a decent debating point. My experience of golf clubs is that they are the worst for many social aspects but the membership in many cases do not see the problem. As awlays, lost of works streams, lots of meetings, lots of discussions, not much action. You look back at all sorts of threads where the argument is put that golf clubs are private and should be able to so what they want even in the face of mixed membership and other serious issues.

I don’t think has even suggested that because issues happen elsewhere that it’s ok for it to happen at a golf - the response was more about the idea that you seem to think issues only happen at golf clubs because you don’t see it at rugby clubs etc

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-u...-allegations-sexist-toxic-culture-employment/


I don’t believe that clubs can make up rules that are racist etc - certainly don’t see people turned away from clubs because of their race or sex in 99% of clubs because they all have to abide by human rights rules

I don’t think anyone would be suggesting a members club can do whatever they like and ignore basic equality and human rights

Rules are set withint all areas of life, I agree but they tend to be for a reason and not of the petty and inconsequential nature at golf clubs and when they are, they are questioned.

Again no one said people can’t question rules - and rules can be changed if the desire from members is there to change them , I have given you two examples of dress code rules that have changed over the years , that was brought by a member to agm and it was changed , same with changing shoes in car park etc

Still, as long as golf clubs want to measure themselves based on other being just as bad as they are (which I disagree wiht, I have never seen worse attitudes to women and families than at golf clubs) then that is fine.

No one has suggested that’s the case more countering your idea that golf clubs are the root of all evil whilst all other sporting establishments don’t have issues of their own

Society itself still has issues in how people are treated , society also has issues where people are more than happy to ignore the rules and laws

 

[GB72]

I don’t think has even suggested that because issues happen elsewhere that it’s ok for it to happen at a golf - the response was more about the idea that you seem to think issues only happen at golf clubs because you don’t see it at rugby clubs etc

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-u...-allegations-sexist-toxic-culture-employment/


I don’t believe that clubs can make up rules that are racist etc - certainly don’t see people turned away from clubs because of their race or sex in 99% of clubs because they all have to abide by human rights rules

I don’t think anyone would be suggesting a members club can do whatever they like and ignore basic equality and human rights



Again no one said people can’t question rules - and rules can be changed if the desire from members is there to change them , I have given you two examples of dress code rules that have changed over the years , that was brought by a member to agm and it was changed , same with changing shoes in car park etc



No one has suggested that’s the case more countering your idea that golf clubs are the root of all evil whilst all other sporting establishments don’t have issues of their own

Society itself still has issues in how people are treated , society also has issues where people are more than happy to ignore the rules and laws

Golf clubs are not the root of all evil, just the worst examples in my experience of attitudes at sporting clubs.

What are formal rules, what the experience if actualy like and how different members are treated are 3 different things and just because there are no issues with one, does not mean that there are not issues with the others.

Many on here have suggested that members clubs can do what they want and if you do not like it, leave.

The fact that some rules exist in the first place is an example of some of the petty minded attitudes in place.

 

[Deleted member 25575]

Not very many years ago I was a member of a work golf society who played at a course in the North West, following the golf we had a sit down meal in one of the function rooms - we had sole use of the function room for our society, there was a single female member of the society, who as we sat down was told the room we were in was a male only room and she would have to sit alone in a separate room, we pointed out the stupidly and sexist nature of what was being said (there were even female servers in the room) to no avail, we had to all decant to a different room where females were allowed.
Are those in this thread advocating that as visitors we should be courteous and abide by rules, saying we should abide by that rule?
Sadly golf is very much still in a bygone era, and yes the above is a one off extreme example but these examples do exist.
Golf needs to modernise if it is to flourish!

 

[Pants]

Comparing where some posters live and the comments made above, based on my experiences of many many golf clubs, the South East of England must be an elightened area of the country. Perhaps it goes part way to explaining why most members clubs down here have full memberships, can command a joining fee, and are therefore able to invest for the better experience of the members.

It's the members that make a club what it is.