Match play or Stroke play?

[hedgin_bets]

Hi All,

I was wondering if someone could help me, I have a 20 handicap and my golfing buddy plays off 7. We play for a ball per hole but we always argue about how my 13 extra strokes should be counted. I maintain that we essentially play match play as we count holes won at the end and pay out balls based on who's up or down after 18, so I should get a stroke on holes index 1-13. He reckons we play stroke play, so I get a stroke on holes index 1,2 and 8-18.

Can anyone please help settle this argument?

 

[robbest3offthetee]

Hi mate,And welcome to the forum,its quite simple,you receive your shots on indexes 1-13,How can your mate say you get shots on 8-18, unless they come under the said indexes,(ie,1-13),but doubt that is the case....

 

[jammydodger]

If you're playing matchplay then indexes 1-13 should be used. If you're playing strokeplay then it doesnt matter cos you just take both your h/cs off the final gross score.

 

[algar5]

If you're playing matchplay then indexes 1-13 should be used. If you're playing strokeplay then it doesnt matter cos you just take both your h/cs off the final gross score.

Beat me 2 it !

 

[DCB]

A ball per hole ? that could be an expensive morning

edit

I think that you're getting double strokes on a couple of holes (in strokeplay) is causing him a bit of confusion

 

[hedgin_bets]

Thanks very much fellas - appreciate it!
It's caused quite a heated discussion I can tell you, even with some of the other members in the club. Oddly enough the ball betting averages out over the long term as the difference of 13 strokes between our games is pretty accurate.

DCB, yes that's the problem, he insists we're playing stroke play, which I can't understand the rationale for. As we count the number of holes won surely it's match play??

 

[sandbagger]

Hi Gentleman

Unfortunately I am the 7 hcper!! May I add that when we started this "game" we were three guys. The obvious scoring method was that each player gets his own hcp and you win the hole by scoring the lowest number of shots after deduction of each player's handicap. In effect a stableford points system was applied. One person moved on, and the same system was used for over a year. My 20 hcp friend will get shots on index 1-18 and double strokes on index 1 and 2. I will get one shot on index 1-7. If one wants to deduct my handicap from his handicap, the EXACT EQUIVALENT scoring will be that he gets his extra 13 shots on index 1,2 and 8-18. By changing this to a system where he gets his 13 shots on index 1-13, one will be applying a match play scoring system while we play stroke play. It also changes the whole game that was played for over two years. I agree that in pure match play he will get his shots on index 1-13. This is to make sure the higher hcper gets his shots since there might be a chance that the game will be won before the completion of 18 holes. In our case we do play 18 holes every time, the objective is not to win the 'match' but rather to win as many individual holes to win a ball per hole, therefore it is not match play.
Conclusion:
To deduct the 2 handicaps and apply it to index 1-13, is not the recognised scoring method for Stroke play... Anyway we will be playing soon!

 

[Imurg]

Why doesn't 20 handicapper get his shots on SI 4,5,6 and 7?

Seems complicated - are you talking hole numbers or stroke index?

 

[sandbagger]

H
He does have a shot on index 3,4,5,6 and 7, but as I also have a shot on these index numbers, they cancel out. Accordingly, the nett effect is 0 extra shots for him. Again i agree this is complicated but i am trying to explain that playing as we used to by each players handicap and just suddenly change to giving 13 shots on index 1-13 is completely different than playing 7 versus 20.
We sometimes get a third person to play with us and it will be impossible to deduct 3 handicaps from each other. To keep the game simular from one week to the next you need to work on a system that is recognised. This means if i hit a five on a par five index 3 and he also hit a five it is a draw. If you take the next week that he will have a 13 handicap, and i play of "scratch" he will win with a five, seven days later... My point is still to try and comply with golf rules as far as possible, and not use a scoring system that is not recognised for the particular game we play. Therefore a stableford way of scoring is correct since it is recognised. This will mean on the same par 5 index 3 a 5 for him will give him "3 points" and a six for me will give me "2 points" He will be one ball "up" because he win the hole.

 

[fundy]

You are basically playing a stableford game but on a hole by hole basis. Personally if I was you I would play straightforward matchplay when you play the two of you and something like American Stableford or skins (hcap of the lowes like matchplay) if a 3rd joins you.

 

[hedgin_bets]

Wikipedia: Match play is a scoring system for golf in which a player, or team, earns a point for each hole in which they have bested their opponents; this is as opposed to stroke play, in which the total number of strokes is counted over one or more rounds of 18 holes

Sandbagger, good to see you on here. Imurg, yes my point exactly - Sandbagger is using the Stableford system to allocate my shots to holes rather than handicap because he believes we are playing strokeplay, despite the fact we don't count strokes, just holes won/drawn/lost.

He set the rules for the game which our other partner and I bowed down to as we were novice golfers at the time (although it did really confuse us and now I know more I feel it's wrong). He went back to South Africa for 3 months so I played a lot with other golfers and we always played by subtracting handicap totals and adding this to the highest index holes. I don't understand how we can be playing for holes and he's still adamant we should be playing strokeplay, when noone else I know does this and we don't count our strokes either against the hole or the round.

Sorry if this comes across as an irrelevant spat - but on principle we need to clarify this, so any comments would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Imurg]

If I were you two, I'd call it quits and start again playing either matchplay or strokeplay - medal or stableford - and not conglomerated mixture of the two that really makes no sense and I doubt is used anywhere else in the Universe!

 

[greenflies]

Firstly, if you start a game of golf with the objective of winning a ball on each hole, and not the 'round of golf', it is stroke play. Match play solely focuses on winning the round, accordingly the option to cease the game prematurely. Per your description of playing each hole for a ball, it is Stroke play.

Secondly, for Stroke play the scoring rule is as follows, quoted from 'http://www.scoresure.co.uk/scoresure.asp' :

"Unlike match play games, each player in a head-to-head game receives their full handicap for each hole.
In stroke play games, where players score for each hole played, the players handicap is distributed across the holes using the course stroke index. Each players adjusted handicap is compared to the stroke index for the hole to be played, and the player is awarded zero, one, or more shots for each hole. For example, a player with a handicap of 10 is awarded one free shot on each hole with a stroke index of 1-10. Their nett score for these holes will be one less than the number of shots taken to complete the hole. On hole 11-18 they do not receive any free shots. Players with a handicap of more than 18 will be given two shots on some holes. For example, a player with a handicap of 20 will receive two shots on hole with a stroke index of 1 or 2, and one shot on the remaining holes 3-18."

Accordingly, if you are a 20 handicapper, you get 1 extra shot on index 3-18 and 2 extra shots on index 1 and 2. Your golf buddy get 1 extra shot on index 1 - 7. This is the theoretical scoring method. If it comes to the practical application of the method, the holes on which you will have your 13 shots, is index 1,2,3-18. But this is just to make the application of the scoring easy.

I agree with your buddy based on the quotation from the website noted above.

 

[hedgin_bets]

Hi Greenflies,

Thanks for such a detailed response so soon after joining the forum. You sound remarkably like someone I know very well......

My point is that we are not scoring either against the hole or the round - strokes are not counted, just who wins, draws or loses the hole.

 

[Region3]

Sounds like it should be matchplay to me, but it seems there's a lot of history to it.

If you can't agree, why not have the loser one week chooses the format the following week?

 

[sandbagger]

Hi

Since we are like two old women throwing the dishes out I need to add on youre mail... I did not know you were confused at the start of the game two years ago. I feel oblidged to inform the other guests of one or two points. I am sure you will aknowledge that the three of us used to play a game called "wolf" In a perfect world you need to be four players but we played it with three. Same rules ie one tee off and either pick the second or third player or play on his own. In most occasions it was two against one. Each player got his full handicap and compete either alone or as a team member. The player that played the least shots, after taking his own personal handicap into account, win the hole as an individual or part of the team. When our friend left the system continued, as i am sure my friend will agree, since we still make jokes on whos the wolf.. Therefore each player kept his own handicap and compete against the other. This is the same format as stableford, as i discussed before, since the person with the most "points" on the hole (best net score on hole) will win the hole/ball. All i am trying to say is to change now by giving one player a 13 stroke advantage on index 1-13 is not the same as what is describe above. If you do not agree with this, can you explain to me how three different handicaps can play "wolf" by subtracting each others handicaps on each hole and dont forget to keep the index in mind??? This will obviously happen since the team and index will be different on each hole. In that case we will need an accountant to walk with us.. (Do you know one?)

By the way i still hope to get a few of you...

 

[jammydodger]

It seems to me that you as the 'lower' h/c are not keen on giving the higher h/c his strokes on the harder holes 1-13 , but instead want to give him his strokes on 8-18 and then on the two hardest 1-2.

Cant see why you'd be 'scared' to play with just giving him his 13 shots on 1-13 and getting on with it. You're just complicating it for complications sake.

Why not just play matchplay over 18 holes and use the holes up/down method ? we play this in our county interclub matchplay where we play over 36 holes and play out every hole and each match then finishes with an up or down score over 36 holes.

 

[DCB]

Thought I'd played most forms of 'match' over the years but this one is something else.

As long as you guys have fun

 

[bluenose10]

This is confusing just Reading this post let alone trying to play in it, in this format that you guys are playing. We play stableford, matchplay and / or strokeplay and this seems to work for us when you start playing different varieties of these formats it just sounds a bit like effort... I just hope your friendship doesn't suffer lads!?!

 

[Leftie]

Having been totally confused by some of the posts above, I'm not sure if this is relevant or a red herring.

Last year, our captain introduced a new KO cup with an interesting format. It is open to all members including the ladies.

It is a matchplay competition but each hole is won, halved or lost by the number of stableford points scored on the hole by each player off full handicap. If both players play the hole so badly that no points are scored then the lowest nett score wins the hole.

Match play, stableford and stroke play all rolled into one format. Makes sense to me