Resolving stroke play ties

[Jimaroid]

Countback is easy because the software does it for us.

But something being easy doesn't mean it's correct?

 

[Steve Wilkes]

But something being easy doesn't mean it's correct?

What you saying.. The software is doing the countback wrong

 

[Deleted member 3432]

At a previous club there were 2 or 3 comps that had a 18 hole medal playoff in the event of a tie.

I was involved in one once, it was crap way to resolve it despite winning. We had to arrange the date and it ended up getting played a couple of months after the original strokeplay comp.

Would rather have won or lost on the day by card playoff as the game itself was a very odd way to play golf and very flat.

 

[doublebogey7]

Where would you put the high/low split? I'll check back on my club results to see the ratio.

I have analysed both MP and SP.

For MP is simply a case of identifying whether it was a lower or higher handicap Player that won the matches. Pre WHS the lower player won between 55% & 60% of the time. However last year that equalised to 50/50, whether this is a result of WHS or a blip in the figures because the numbers are relatively small I guess we will find out over the next couple of years.

For SP I used the old CONGU categories and calculated prize winnings in relation to the entry fees. Pre WHS Cat 1's always took out more in net prizes (circa 120%) than they contributed in fees, with Cat 2 taking around 90% and Cat 3's around 70% and Cat 4's 30%. Nearly all trophy winners though were either Cat 2 or 3 which you should expect given that Cat 1's have significantly fewer entries and Cat 4's win little in prize money. Post WHS though the numbers were much more aligned although Cat 1's still came out on top but we did have a trophy winner in that category last year.

We also have Gross Prizes though I argued for a reduction in these at committee siting the above, but was outvoted as it was felt that Cat 1's may stop entering as a result (we have around 30 Cat 1's).

 

[Jimaroid]

What you saying.. The software is doing the countback wrong

No, I expect the software to be doing exactly what is intended. It's the design of countback that's faulty.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

No, I expect the software to be doing exactly what is intended. It's the design of countback that's faulty.

But that's a bit like saying Goal Difference is a faulty way of deciding the premiership or 5 penalties a cup match. It's not faulty, some just don't like it

 

[Deleted member 15344]

What you're saying, then, is that the player with the lower gross score should be deemed the winner - handicaps having no part to play in it?

On reflection, perhaps what I should have said was that the player with the lower net differential should be the winner.

Yes the person with the lower handicap - ie the person who took less shots in the event of a tie ?

There is no perfect answer to a tie in club golf because “play offs” aren’t practicable so why not the person who took less shots ? Is that such a bad thing ?

I have analysed both MP and SP.

For MP is simply a case of identifying whether it was a lower or higher handicap Player that won the matches. Pre WHS the lower player won between 55% & 60% of the time. However last year that equalised to 50/50, whether this is a result of WHS or a blip in the figures because the numbers are relatively small I guess we will find out over the next couple of years.

For SP I used the old CONGU categories and calculated prize winnings in relation to the entry fees. Pre WHS Cat 1's always took out more in net prizes (circa 120%) than they contributed in fees, with Cat 2 taking around 90% and Cat 3's around 70% and Cat 4's 30%. Nearly all trophy winners though were either Cat 2 or 3 which you should expect given that Cat 1's have significantly fewer entries and Cat 4's win little in prize money. Post WHS though the numbers were much more aligned although Cat 1's still came out on top but we did have a trophy winner in that category last year.

We also have Gross Prizes though I argued for a reduction in these at committee siting the above, but was outvoted as it was felt that Cat 1's may stop entering as a result (we have around 30 Cat 1's).

Looking at our results since 2018

If you take away the scratch KO and Club Champs we have had

2 cat 1 winners of trophy/Board comps - 1 in 2019 which was myself and one in 2018

In medals/Stablefords I can see a total of 1 cat 1 winning two Stablefords ( improving junior playing off 5 )

In the club Handicap MP no Cat 1 has won for as long as I can see on the website

 

[Jimaroid]

But that's a bit like saying Goal Difference is a faulty way of deciding the premiership or 5 penalties a cup match. It's not faulty, some just don't like it

No it's not, they're both examples of breaking ties based on equitable value of goals. One goal is worth one goal no matter who the player is.

Countback is like saying one player's goal is worth more than another player's goal due to handicapping, then forgetting you built that into the algorithm and when it comes to the end of the season you give the premiership title to the team with the biggest goal difference assuming one goal was worth one goal every match.

 

[Foxholer]

At a previous club there were 2 or 3 comps that had a 18 hole medal playoff in the event of a tie.

I was involved in one once, it was crap way to resolve it despite winning. We had to arrange the date and it ended up getting played a couple of months after the original strokeplay comp.

Would rather have won or lost on the day by card playoff as the game itself was a very odd way to play golf and very flat.

Please explain your interpretation of 'Medal' vs 'Strokeplay', as my understanding is that they are 2 different terms fo the same thing. The contra of them is 'Matchplay'.
Doublebogey7 refers to MP and SP, but it's obvous from the later text that MP refers to Matchplay

 

[Old Skier]

If it’s such a big deal in some clubs why not just say all those with the same score are equal

 

[Old Skier]

Yes the person with the lower handicap - ie the person who took less shots in the event of a tie ?

There is no perfect answer to a tie in club golf because “play offs” aren’t practicable so why not the person who took less shots ? Is that such a bad thing ?


Looking at our results since 2018

If you take away the scratch KO and Club Champs we have had

2 cat 1 winners of trophy/Board comps - 1 in 2019 which was myself and one in 2018

In medals/Stablefords I can see a total of 1 cat 1 winning two Stablefords ( improving junior playing off 5 )

In the club Handicap MP no Cat 1 has won for as long as I can see on the website

Why take away what are the more prestige’s comps or were they won by low handicap players

 

[Steve Wilkes]

No it's not, they're both examples of breaking ties based on equitable value of goals. One goal is worth one goal no matter who the player is.

Countback is like saying one player's goal is worth more than another player's goal due to handicapping, then forgetting you built that into the algorithm and when it comes to the end of the season you give the premiership title to the team with the biggest goal difference assuming one goal was worth one goal every match.

I would say that the results against each other is far more important than goals scored against teams that might have had two players sent off early in a match. Goal difference is faulty

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Please explain your interpretation of 'Medal' vs 'Strokeplay', as my understanding is that they are 2 different terms fo the same thing. The contra of them is 'Matchplay'.
Doublebogey7 refers to MP and SP, but it's obvous from the later text that MP refers to Matchplay

Medal comp and 18 hole medal play off

You knew what I meant.

 

[Deleted member 23270]

I have analysed both MP and SP.

For MP is simply a case of identifying whether it was a lower or higher handicap Player that won the matches. Pre WHS the lower player won between 55% & 60% of the time. However last year that equalised to 50/50, whether this is a result of WHS or a blip in the figures because the numbers are relatively small I guess we will find out over the next couple of years.

For SP I used the old CONGU categories and calculated prize winnings in relation to the entry fees. Pre WHS Cat 1's always took out more in net prizes (circa 120%) than they contributed in fees, with Cat 2 taking around 90% and Cat 3's around 70% and Cat 4's 30%. Nearly all trophy winners though were either Cat 2 or 3 which you should expect given that Cat 1's have significantly fewer entries and Cat 4's win little in prize money. Post WHS though the numbers were much more aligned although Cat 1's still came out on top but we did have a trophy winner in that category last year.

We also have Gross Prizes though I argued for a reduction in these at committee siting the above, but was outvoted as it was felt that Cat 1's may stop entering as a result (we have around 30 Cat 1's).

I checked our results back to start of 2020. A monthly medal and stableford plus various other singles competitions so about 40 singles comps in total. 5 were won by single figure players, vast majority won by teens and a couple by guys in the 20's
We have over 50 Cat 1 players as were.

 

[Foxholer]

...
You knew what I meant.

I absolutely did not! Which was the only reason I asked!
FWIW, I'm still uncertain what you meant - using different, though synonomous, terms!

 

[Deleted member 3432]

I absolutely did not! Which was the only reason I asked!
FWIW, I'm still uncertain what you meant - using different, though synonomous, terms!

Post #93

Medal comp.

18 Hole medal play off

 

[doublebogey7]

Yes the person with the lower handicap - ie the person who took less shots in the event of a tie ?

There is no perfect answer to a tie in club golf because “play offs” aren’t practicable so why not the person who took less shots ? Is that such a bad thing ?


Looking at our results since 2018

If you take away the scratch KO and Club Champs we have had

2 cat 1 winners of trophy/Board comps - 1 in 2019 which was myself and one in 2018

In medals/Stablefords I can see a total of 1 cat 1 winning two Stablefords ( improving junior playing off 5 )

In the club Handicap MP no Cat 1 has won for as long as I can see on the website

That tells me nothing in relation to a Cat 1's chances of winning compared to any other Category.

You stated earlier that you had no chance of winning, but now confess you have won a board comp in the last 4 years. Would be interested to know how many board comps you've played since and how many entries you generally get.

Played on Saturday where I had a 1 in 160 chance of winning assuming all competitors had an equal chance. So I could only expect to win one of these every , 10-15 years.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

That tells me nothing in relation to a Cat 1's chances of winning compared to any other Category.

You stated earlier that you had no chance of winning, but now confess you have won a board comp in the last 4 years. Would be interested to know how many board comps you've played since and how many entries you generally get.

Played on Saturday where I had a 1 in 160 chance of winning assuming all competitors had an equal chance. So I could only expect to win one of these every , 10-15 years.

I enter every board comp - which is about 15 i think plus another 20 plus medals etc - field is around 120-130 each time

I won my last one when I played off 5 and as I said haven’t got a chance “now” since the arrival of WHS.

We have asked for a gross prize and been told no but they did create a “mid handicap” KO - even though the mid handicappers win the main club KO each year.

We have two scratch comps - club champs and a KO - outside that then it’s mid to high handicaps winning each week.

There is a feeling that each comp at most clubs the mid handicap has the best chance of winning yet everyone plays in it

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Im a member of a golf club and pay a significant amount for the privilege which includes competitions being put of for the “whole” membership - so why should someone have to go outside the club and pay even more to play comps ?

Surely the club should have competitions to suit the full spectrum of the membership



Pistols ?

It’s prob a rare occasion anyway if you remove countback and put the winner as the lowest HC - how often would we see the lowest HC having the same ?

there will never be a perfect answer for a tie in Amateur club golf

We have several scratch prizes. Isn't your club championship a scratch event? We run a separate handicap event but the club champion is always recognised as the lowest gross score over the two days. We also have another scratch prize in our honours board events (again with a handicap event running alongside so everyone gets to play).

Divisions in medals and stablefords makes perfect sense and you are only playing within your peer group depending on how the handicaps are split so I would suggest you should have as good a chance as any to get into contention. The argument against plus handicaps seems mute as they will always have to be on their A game to be in with a chance in a handicap event which is why they probably (at least the ones I know locally) don't really worry about a monthly stableford and use it as playing practice

 

[jim8flog]

That tells me nothing in relation to a Cat 1's chances of winning compared to any other Category.
.

What is a CAT 1 and what are these other categories you are talking about