LIV Golf

[wjemather]

So they have been given exemptions based on who they are as opposed to how they have performed on tour

And you are trying to compare that to people who have one the biggest tournaments on the ET which comes?

As I said which you appear to ignore - exemptions based on performances

FYI, I took those labels from current ET & PGAT exemption categories.
LIV exemptions are based on recent season performance; LIV contracts are based on business cases that take into account a number of things, including both recent and career performance.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

FYI, I took those labels from current ET & PGAT exemption categories.
LIV exemptions are based on recent season performance; LIV contracts are based on business cases that take into account a number of things, including career performance.

“Business case” - there is it

Players that did well years ago continuing because they are a name based on past performances on another tour

Watson despite being 20 places lower than Chacarra stayed on tour , Kim despite being significantly lower stayed on tour - based on his name

 

[Hobbit]

It might - yep , but that’s different to claims that it will

Think of where all the non-US PGA tour players started and then what some of them achieved. Where they come from is almost an irrelevance. A good player will almost certainly succeed wherever they play. The circular argument, yes they will, no they won’t is almost puerile.

Seve started on a beach. Trevino started as a (almost penniless) caddy hustling for money by playing members. Poulter, though not a major winner, turned pro off 4 and sold Mars bars in a shop - I wouldn’t mind being a few £M behind him.

Where they all started and where they play is an irrelevance, and the top players on LIV have shown they’re still up good enough to compete.

 

[Mel Smooth]

At last, you are beginning to see the light. LIV is about money and not 'growing the game'

Rory Mc Ilroy Golf GIF - Rory Mc Ilroy Golf Money - Discover & Share GIFs

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[Arthur Wedge]

Think of where all the non-US PGA tour players started and then what some of them achieved. Where they come from is almost an irrelevance. A good player will almost certainly succeed wherever they play. The circular argument, yes they will, no they won’t is almost puerile.

Seve started on a beach. Trevino started as a (almost penniless) caddy hustling for money by playing members. Poulter, though not a major winner, turned pro off 4 and sold Mars bars in a shop - I wouldn’t mind being a few £M behind him.

Where they all started and where they play is an irrelevance, and the top players on LIV have shown they’re still up good enough to compete.

They did indeed

Someone’s quality will always shine through and the best will reach the top

Poulter is a perfect example of someone who moved to the PGAT to help his career - that helped open the doors for him

Claims of moving to LIV giving someone a better chance in majors etc is just random statements because there isn’t anything to back it - because right now going to LIV does close some doors and affects players getting into majors

Moving to PGAT opens those doors

So when someone says McKibbon will have a better chance in majors by moving to LIV it’s a statement with nothing behind it

McKibbon could have followed the same path as Bob Mac - may not have made the same amount of money but more doors would have opened and even bigger ones if he performed well

Think this is a very good summary made earlier by someone


“exhibition of entertaining golf with pre-established big names and personalities on show. Its not a pathway to major success at all.”

 

[wjemather]

Players that did well years ago continuing because they are a name based on past performances on another tour

LIV less than 4 years old - it's inevitable that any worthwhile career performance metric would be based substantially on performances pre-LIV.

Watson despite being 20 places lower than Chacarra stayed on tour , Kim despite being significantly lower stayed on tour - based on his name

...which in turn is substantially based on past career performance (and potential to rediscover some of that). Performance that you want to discount because it's not on LIV.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

LIV less than 4 years old - it's inevitable that any worthwhile career performance metric would be based substantially on performances pre-LIV.

...which in turn is substantially based on past career performance (and potential to rediscover some of that). Performance that you want to discount because it's not on LIV.

Is it 15 years since Kim last won ?

Is that why he is there “to rediscover”

Same with the likes of Westwood etc - or are they there because of their name

Chacarra won during the period LIV has been up and running

The pathway is and prob always will be the biggest issue with LIV

They are keeping players on because of their name

 

[wjemather]

They are keeping players on because of their name

Can you name a tour that doesn't?

(I've already highlighted some of the relevant ET & PGAT categories, so please don't say one of them!)

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Is it 15 years since Kim last won ?

Is that why he is there “to rediscover”

Same with the likes of Westwood etc - or are they there because of their name

Chacarra won during the period LIV has been up and running

The pathway is and prob always will be the biggest issue with LIV

They are keeping players on because of their name

He is there because the only thing he cares about is his daughter and providing for her. He hit addiction badly and her being born saved him from a very dark place and potentially death.

He just wants the best life for her , his interview with shiels he opened up a lot about his past.

Fair play to him.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Can you name a tour that doesn't?

(I've already highlighted some of the relevant ET & PGAT categories, so please don't say one of them!)

Which players are we talking about in regards both the PGAT and the DP who are still playing regularly on tours based only on their name

 

[Arthur Wedge]

He is there because the only thing he cares about is his daughter and providing for her. He hit addiction badly and her being born saved him from a very dark place and potentially death.

He just wants the best life for her , his interview with shiels he opened up a lot about his past.

Fair play to him.

So being given millions on a golf tour because he threw all his money away shoving drugs up his nose - interesting pathway

 

[BubbaP]

Think you have missed the point I was making

It’s only LIV that after every major need to highlight where their players finished-

The other tours don’t and people outside liv don’t really care - anytime there is a major there are some ( not you ) - that need to keep that division up when imo it’s not helping at all

I agree it is a slightly odd thing for them to do, maybe it is under the banner of "interest" for those that watch/follow it. Would have thought it is easy to avoid if not interested.

I'd suggest there's been a fair bit more encouraging division on the last few pages here though

 

[Hobbit]

Think this is a very good summary made earlier by someone


“exhibition of entertaining golf with pre-established big names and personalities on show. Its not a pathway to major success at all.”

Equally, why can’t it be a stepping stone to Major success? Going to LIV isn’t a one way street. And some of those playing LIV went from the Korn Ferry because they couldn’t get onto the PGA tour - Whats to say they won’t progress?

I’m seeing lots of snapshot in time points from both sides that are valid, up to a point, but could conceivably be wrong if a player decides to jump ship from either camp, or their form improves or wanes.

Players and their respective tours will rise or fall based on their future performance. Joe Bloggs on LIV might turn out to be the next Rory, or Rory/Rahm might have a brain fart and fall way down the pecking order.

LIV appeals to a certain demographic more than others. And if the choice was between a lesser known PGA tour event with no names in it or LIV with the noise off I’d choose LIV.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

So why did Tom McKibbin snub the PGAT to join LIV?

One swallow does not a summer make.

Where is the evidence all of these young players are going to win majors? Has he even won on Liv yet?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Equally, why can’t it be a stepping stone to Major success? Going to LIV isn’t a one way street. And some of those playing LIV went from the Korn Ferry because they couldn’t get onto the PGA tour - Whats to say they won’t progress?

It could - evidence at the moment is suggesting its a thin could

There isn’t many if any that have progressed

The ones that have moved well through LIV haven’t replicated that in majors - Niemann is an example of that

I don’t know who went to LIV from Korn Ferry and if they couldn’t get onto PGAT was that because they weren’t good enough to qualify or gain a tour card through Q school

I’m seeing lots of snapshot in time points from both sides that are valid, up to a point, but could conceivably be wrong if a player decides to jump ship from either camp, or their form improves or wanes.

Players and their respective tours will rise or fall based on their future performance. Joe Bloggs on LIV might turn out to be the next Rory, or Rory/Rahm might have a brain fart and fall way down the pecking order.

LIV appeals to a certain demographic more than others. And if the choice was between a lesser known PGA tour event with no names in it or LIV with the noise off I’d choose LIV.

LIV took on a lot of players early on - most of them long established played on various tours

it’s evolved a little with trying to find a pathway but the issue LIV have is those that came through weren’t names that grabbed the attention so they went out and looked to grab Rahm etc with a lot more money

Now imo they are at stage where they have a handful at the top who are at the prime and are big names - Koepka , Rahm etc

Then there is a bunch of players who are in their twilight as such

And then they have people who they needed to fill gaps

They will have an issue coming up - those “names” will fade away , and they imo struggle to replace them - hence why they keep giving players like Grace further contracts

i

 

[Deleted member 21784]

So being given millions on a golf tour because he threw all his money away shoving drugs up his nose - interesting pathway

 

[Hobbit]

It could - evidence at the moment is suggesting its a thin could

There isn’t many if any that have progressed

The ones that have moved well through LIV haven’t replicated that in majors - Niemann is an example of that

I don’t know who went to LIV from Korn Ferry and if they couldn’t get onto PGAT was that because they weren’t good enough to qualify or gain a tour card through Q school


LIV took on a lot of players early on - most of them long established played on various tours

it’s evolved a little with trying to find a pathway but the issue LIV have is those that came through weren’t names that grabbed the attention so they went out and looked to grab Rahm etc with a lot more money

Now imo they are at stage where they have a handful at the top who are at the prime and are big names - Koepka , Rahm etc

Then there is a bunch of players who are in their twilight as such

And then they have people who they needed to fill gaps

They will have an issue coming up - those “names” will fade away , and they imo struggle to replace them - hence why they keep giving players like Grace further contracts

i

“Thin could…” But what about those that qualified for the PGA tour from the Korn Ferry. How many of those lost their card at the end of their first season? How many of them finished above 50th in the money list? Whilst I believe the upper echelons of the PGA tour is stronger, and by default it was always going to be that way, I believe there’s little to choose between them further down. The sheer logic of there being waning players, failing players, newbies and those off form on both tours in similar numbers is obvious. Its the top end of the PGA tour that wins the Willie waving competition.

As for players fading away needing to be replaced, the business model is already there. They will hope LIV comes in for them. They’ll be happy to jump when they see their income dropping off. What happens with a good number of Prem footballers? A decent last transfer, often into a league/division they can still compete in.

And in the middle of all that in both tours there’ll be some gems coming in to replace the waning stars.

I think that LIV will decide whether they succeed. And that decision will be down to how much money they’re willing to throw at it. Breaking a monopoly like the PGA tour is extremely expensive, and LIV will need to pinch some of the PGA’s big sponsors too. LIV also need a better media platform to attract those sponsors.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

“Thin could…” But what about those that qualified for the PGA tour from the Korn Ferry. How many of those lost their card at the end of their first season? How many of them finished above 50th in the money list? Whilst I believe the upper echelons of the PGA tour is stronger, and by default it was always going to be that way, I believe there’s little to choose between them further down. The sheer logic of there being waning players, failing players, newbies and those off form on both tours in similar numbers is obvious. Its the top end of the PGA tour that wins the Willie waving competition.

I don’t know how the people from the KFT did - suspect it’s a very hard transition to move between those tours

McCarty was a recent player who moved up - 14th in his first Masters

Scheffler come up through the KFT as well

Sunjae Im another recent one

But the point was by qualifying onto the PGAT the chances are higher providing the player performs

As for players fading away needing to be replaced, the business model is already there. They will hope LIV comes in for them. They’ll be happy to jump when they see their income dropping off. What happens with a good number of Prem footballers? A decent last transfer, often into a league/division they can still compete in.

I’m talking about players fading away on LIV - who replaces them on LIV , if a player fades away on the PGAT then the players qualifying through their various pathways will take their place

People like Bob Mac coming through from the DP pathway are a perfect example

Some of those Fading PGAT stars can go to LIV - so does that make LIV a glorified senior’s tour ?

And in the middle of all that in both tours there’ll be some gems coming in to replace the waning stars.

I think that LIV will decide whether they succeed. And that decision will be down to how much money they’re willing to throw at it. Breaking a monopoly like the PGA tour is extremely expensive, and LIV will need to pinch some of the PGA’s big sponsors too. LIV also need a better media platform to attract those sponsors.

The issue is for LIV - where are the gems coming from , the PGAT has the pathway from college as well as multiple other ways

LIVs promotion tournament hasn’t produced the gems

They have already thrown a lot of money at it - the big sponsers are US based , are they going to want to sponser events in Korea , Aus , Singapore , highly unlikely , it’s one of the main reasons why the PGAT squashed the other tours - corporate US sponsers

LIV has only got PIF - yep it’s big deep pockets , but how long does it stand up a tour that’s not exactly booming

 

[Deleted member 36742]

I can't believe that the same arguments are being aired after all this time.

LIV isn't going to disappear and the PGAT will continue in much the same way as before.

Some people prefer LIV and some prefer PGAT.

Can't see that any of the main protagonists on either side have changed their position over the years.

Move on and just focus on.enjoying your golf.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

I can't believe that the same arguments are being aired after all this time.

LIV isn't going to disappear and the PGAT will continue in much the same way as before.

Some people prefer LIV and some prefer PGAT.

Can't see that any of the main protagonists on either side have changed their position over the years.

Move on and just focus on.enjoying your golf.

Some people enjoy neither and watch the majors

And some enjoy both aswell

People are far too judgemental on Liv its unreal