LIV Golf

[Mel Smooth]

Wait while we get to watch all thims on the Netflix documentary.

I see there's been a couple of PGA guys come out in support of Monahon (like he asked them to in his letter), but are any of the big hitters offering any opinion, I know Rory said recently that a lot of the LIV guys are his friends, and I guess that will apply to a lot of the players on the tours.

 

[Foxholer]

Having re-read what I said and listened to a couple of PGAT players, it had everything to do with the Lawsuit. LIV players are the plaintiffs against the PGAT which effectively means they are taking their fellow players through the court, given that the PGAT is a member won't organisation, which is the real point I was trying to make.

No it doesn't! Though they may feel that it does.
As an independent contractor myself, for getting near to 30 years, I had little/no actual allegiance to the company I worked for - and they had little/no allegiance to me. It's a little 'closer' for players than my relationship was, given that if The PGAT suffers, they are likely to suffer. But still legally the same. The key is who is being sued - and it's not players. They simply have a vested interested in the outcome.

 

[doublebogey7]

No it doesn't! Though they may feel that it does.
As an independent contractor myself, for getting near to 30 years, I had little/no actual allegiance to the company I worked for - and they had little/no allegiance to me. It's a little 'closer' for players than my relationship was, given that if The PGAT suffers, they are likely to suffer. But still legally the same. The key is who is being sued - and it's not players. They simply have a vested interested in the outcome.

But the PGAT is not a company in the normal sense but a not for profit organisation wholly owned by the members of the PGAT. So the players have more than a vested interest in the outcome.

 

[Foxholer]

But the PGAT is not a company in the normal sense but a not for profit organisation wholly owned by the members of the PGAT. So the players have more than a vested interest in the outcome.

Are you sure about that? I can't find any documentation that that is the case. It's definitely a 501C NFP company though - as demonstrated by its filings.

 

[doublebogey7]

Are you sure about that? I can't find any documentation that that is the case. It's definitely a 501C NFP company though - as demonstrated by its filings.

Perhaps owned is not the correct term, given that NFP status means there are no shares to buy or sell and no profit/losses to again/lose. Players do though make up a large percentage if the board and therefore have a great say in how it runs. In any case the costs of the court case incurred by the PGAT will ultimately have to be paid by the players, through lower prize winnings, as their is no one else to pay.

 

[Backsticks]

PGAT is sitting on a fund reserve of something like $250M. Was 300M but they spent 50 keeping the show on the road through covid.

 

[Foxholer]

PGAT is sitting on a fund reserve of something like $250M. Was 300M but they spent 50 keeping the show on the road through covid.

It's a pretty large organisation! Total Revenue in 2020 was $1.16 Billion!

 

[Foxholer]

Perhaps owned is not the correct term, given that NFP status means there are no shares to buy or sell and no profit/losses to again/lose. Players do though make up a large percentage if the board and therefore have a great say in how it runs. In any case the costs of the court case incurred by the PGAT will ultimately have to be paid by the players, through lower prize winnings, as their is no one else to pay.

Yes, 'owned' is not legally/functionally correct - as far as I can see.
I'm certain there are sufficient 'reserve funds' available to call on. Player payouts would only happen if the organisation is wound up!
There are plenty of sources of revenue to cover ongoing prize money.

 

[doublebogey7]

Yes, 'owned' is not legally/functionally correct - as far as I can see.
I'm certain there are sufficient 'reserve funds' available to call on. Player payouts would only happen if the organisation is wound up!
There are plenty of sources of revenue to cover ongoing prize money.

Yes in the short term costs will come from reserves. Reserves though are held in such organisations for a good reason, so over time these would have to be made up, effectively from reduced payouts to players.

 

[Foxholer]

Yes in the short term costs will come from reserves. Reserves though are held in such organisations for a good reason, so over time these would have to be made up, effectively from reduced payouts to players.

Indeed! For situations like this one!
As long as an organisation continues, their 'reserves' are exactly that - reserves! Payouts need not be affected at all

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Forgive the long post but it's from Forbes.Com and you have to be a subscriber to read it. Interesting article on the financials of the PGA Tour.

LIV IS HERE TO STAY
Phil Mickelson plies on the first hole during the first day of the LIV Golf Invitational at The Centurion Club in St Albans, England, in June.

cConventional wisdom says LIV Golf is the folly of a rich kingdom. But it is not. It is one of the functions of basic economics.

While a lot of attention has been paid to LIV Golf which pays richer wallets and more secured money to golfers than PGA, that is not the reason LIV Golf is here to stay. The PGA acted like a no-nonsense monopoly for many years. It has caused some of its players to grumble about a lack of financial disclosure, pays its executives too much and fails to deliver to its clients, who often don’t even know where their favorite golfers will play.

As Gregory Presiger reported in June, the PGA took $1.5 billion in total revenue in 2019 — the same year that PGA Commissioner Jay Monahan received $8.9 million in compensation. Presiger wrote that had he been a Tour player, Monahan’s income would have ranked second in official PGA Tour financial gains, behind Brooks Koepka’s $9.7 million and ahead of Rory McIlroy’s $7.8 million.

In 2020, PGA, a “non-profit” organization, reported a net income of $87 million on revenue of $1.16 billion, with its executives receiving $34 million in compensation. But its annual report offers little to no detail. Since 2013, golfers like Greg Norman (now the commissioner of LIV Golf) have complained about PGA records keeping. “I’ve been asking for an independent review for years to make sure there was complete financial transparency, and it’s never been done,” Norman said.

For golf lovers and sponsors, LIV Golf’s trusty bags have a distinct advantage over PGA’s that exceed dollars and cents. They know who will play in each tournament. As one top golfer recently suggested, create 12 to 14 big events a year where stars are guaranteed, and the tour will look more attractive to sponsors, TV networks, and fans. “The era of maximum playing opportunities must go, and the era of the best against the best must often begin,” the golfer said. LIV Golf also has a different tournament format.

The PGA’s first reaction to LIV Golf was to ban its newly signed members from PGA events and initiate lobbying efforts against the Saudi-backed league. This was a stupid and blatant move of hypocrisy, given that many PGA sponsors do business with Saudi Arabia and that the women's professional golf is backed by Saudi Aramco Energy and Chemicals. The Saudi Public Investment Fund behind LIV Golf also owns a stake in the PGA Tour Fan Shop.


The PGA may have finally woken up from its long slumber. The association just announced that it will increase its prize money to a record $429 million for the 2022-23 season.

The only thing missing from the LIV Golf – albeit a huge piece – is a big media deal. The PGA recently signed nine-year agreements with CBS, NBC, and ESPN+ to broadcast coverage of events through 2030. It is said to be worth $700 million annually, amounting to more than $6 billion over the decades. There is no reason why LIV Golf should not have a similar deal"

 

[Foxholer]

....
As Gregory Presiger reported in June, the PGA took $1.5 billion in total revenue in 2019 — the same year that PGA Commissioner Jay Monahan received $8.9 million in compensation.
...

That's probably less than half the amount a CEO (Monahan's equivalent) in a 'normal' company with that turnover would be compensated!
MLB Commissioner made $11M in 2020; NFL equivalent made $63.9M
And apparently, a sizeable chunk of that 'compensation' is made up of performance bonuses - or at least his predecessor's was.

 

[Deleted member 23270]

What's wrong about it? I'm merely suggesting it's weird someone thinks it costs £1000k a year to watch golf.

A lot of people are paying in excess of £100 a month for Sky to watch golf. I don't understand why you find my comment weird but you're entitled to your opinion.

 

[Backsticks]

That's probably less than half the amount a CEO (Monahan's equivalent) in a 'normal' company with that turnover would be compensated!
MLB Commissioner made $11M in 2020; NFL equivalent made $63.9M
And apparently, a sizeable chunk of that 'compensation' is made up of performance bonuses - or at least his predecessor's was.

I wouldnt have thought so. I would say he is getting several multiples of the equivalent for other 1.5bn turnover companies.
I think thats the point the article line is trying to highlight, suggesting his should bracket him as a very special 2nd in the world ranking ceo. But that he isnt.

 

[Foxholer]

I wouldnt have thout so. I would say he is getting several multiples of the equivalent for other 1.5bn turnover companies.
I think thats the point the article line is trying to highlight, suggesting his should bracket him as a very special 2nd in the world ranking ceo. But that he isnt.

Google it/Check Wiki!
I did!

 

[doublebogey7]

Forgive the long post but it's from Forbes.Com and you have to be a subscriber to read it. Interesting article on the financials of the PGA Tour.

LIV IS HERE TO STAY
Phil Mickelson plies on the first hole during the first day of the LIV Golf Invitational at The Centurion Club in St Albans, England, in June.

cConventional wisdom says LIV Golf is the folly of a rich kingdom. But it is not. It is one of the functions of basic economics.

While a lot of attention has been paid to LIV Golf which pays richer wallets and more secured money to golfers than PGA, that is not the reason LIV Golf is here to stay. The PGA acted like a no-nonsense monopoly for many years. It has caused some of its players to grumble about a lack of financial disclosure, pays its executives too much and fails to deliver to its clients, who often don’t even know where their favorite golfers will play.

As Gregory Presiger reported in June, the PGA took $1.5 billion in total revenue in 2019 — the same year that PGA Commissioner Jay Monahan received $8.9 million in compensation. Presiger wrote that had he been a Tour player, Monahan’s income would have ranked second in official PGA Tour financial gains, behind Brooks Koepka’s $9.7 million and ahead of Rory McIlroy’s $7.8 million.

In 2020, PGA, a “non-profit” organization, reported a net income of $87 million on revenue of $1.16 billion, with its executives receiving $34 million in compensation. But its annual report offers little to no detail. Since 2013, golfers like Greg Norman (now the commissioner of LIV Golf) have complained about PGA records keeping. “I’ve been asking for an independent review for years to make sure there was complete financial transparency, and it’s never been done,” Norman said.

For golf lovers and sponsors, LIV Golf’s trusty bags have a distinct advantage over PGA’s that exceed dollars and cents. They know who will play in each tournament. As one top golfer recently suggested, create 12 to 14 big events a year where stars are guaranteed, and the tour will look more attractive to sponsors, TV networks, and fans. “The era of maximum playing opportunities must go, and the era of the best against the best must often begin,” the golfer said. LIV Golf also has a different tournament format.

The PGA’s first reaction to LIV Golf was to ban its newly signed members from PGA events and initiate lobbying efforts against the Saudi-backed league. This was a stupid and blatant move of hypocrisy, given that many PGA sponsors do business with Saudi Arabia and that the women's professional golf is backed by Saudi Aramco Energy and Chemicals. The Saudi Public Investment Fund behind LIV Golf also owns a stake in the PGA Tour Fan Shop.


The PGA may have finally woken up from its long slumber. The association just announced that it will increase its prize money to a record $429 million for the 2022-23 season.

The only thing missing from the LIV Golf – albeit a huge piece – is a big media deal. The PGA recently signed nine-year agreements with CBS, NBC, and ESPN+ to broadcast coverage of events through 2030. It is said to be worth $700 million annually, amounting to more than $6 billion over the decades. There is no reason why LIV Golf should not have a similar deal"

For a second I thought we were going to get a fully thought-out idea of what the business plan may look like, but not just more piffle about how a small number of PGAT do not like playing on that tour and the rewards it offers. Oh and how an ex-player is demanding to see the tour accounts.

And in what other organisation would you expect to see the CEO to be earning other than the highest salary within that organisation?

 

[HeftyHacker]

And in what other organisation would you expect to see the CEO to be earning other than the highest salary within that organisation?

I imagine it happens within top level sport quite frequently.

Most premier league football teams will be playing their top earning players more than the CEO's i would have thought.

According to Man Uniteds accounts, Ed Woodward was earning just over £3m a year, which is about 8 times less than the likes of Alexis Sanchez in that same period.

 

[RRidges]

I imagine it happens within top level sport quite frequently.

Most premier league football teams will be playing their top earning players more than the CEO's i would have thought.

According to Man Uniteds accounts, Ed Woodward was earning just over £3m a year, which is about 8 times less than the likes of Alexis Sanchez in that same period.

That's simply the 'law of supply an demand' in action.
I'd imagine Ten Hag's salary also exceeds Woodward's, though likely still less than some of the players.

 

[howbow88]

PGAT is sitting on a fund reserve of something like $250M. Was 300M but they spent 50 keeping the show on the road through covid.

There's been a lot of negativity surrounding this and I'm still not really sure why. Being financially prudent is a good thing. Mickelson is looking more and more like a guy who is either insanely greedy for more, or just desperate for cash right now because he is in a financial mess...

 

[Mel Smooth]

Interesting thread from Handicap 54 here who is reporting some comments made by Ortiz.

Hispanic/Latin Team to be remamed Bulls GC
LIV looking to have a venue in Spain (Valderrama does get a mention in another tweet), and the international series looking to go to Mexico
Vegas and Australia also to be added to the list of venues - with an Australian team in the pipeline.
LIV players have been asked to compete in 2 Asian Tour International Series Events - Ortiz will play Singapore and Hong Kong
He also talks about the business side of the PGA, how their model has been to satisfy businessman rather than in the interests of the game, and said he is enjoying the camararerie of playing the LIV series.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1555666819247112192