LIV Golf

[Arthur Wedge]

That wasn't my point.

It won't be long before all but 1 or 2 players who are leaving the DPWT won't be good enough to make a worthwhile impact on the PGAT - when that happens, what do you expect the PGAT to do.
Also, keeping it LIV related - you can expect there will always be some guys who will favour LIV over the PGAT option, further weakening 'the deal' for the PGAT.

Why won’t they be good enough ?

has the production line just stopped

40 years plus players have been moving to the PGAT - some are good enough some come back after not performing well

That’s not going to change

There also many players that go from the KFT to the PGAT or from the Asia tour etc that aren’t good enough as well

The PGAT won’t close doors off from player pathways

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I am shocked.....players chasing the money who ever would have thought ?????

I am shocked.....players chasing the money who ever would have thought ?????

Yep something that’s been happening for 40 years plus

What’s your point

 

[wjemather]

Again missing the point

The top players on the ET will always move on , always have , always will , those spaces will then be filled by the next up and coming young new talent

The ET will never be at the level of the PGAT - that horse bottled over 40 years ago now when players started to move across

It’s a shame that European players abandoned the tour to chase money but as we can see that’s the way it works

Again - what’s your idea to change it ?

You're either being disingenuous, really don't get it, or are just avoiding the actual issue in favour of being argumentative.

Losing (at most) one or two of the very best a year is very different to giving away 9 or 10 of the next best, and we shouldn't be hoodwinked into pretending they are still full playing members of the tour when they only play 4 or 5 tournaments. Replacing proven players with lesser ones with potential (btw, the likes of David Law, James Morrison, Matt Baldwin, Eddie Pepperell, JC Richie, etc. can hardly be described as "up and coming new talent") weakens >80% of the fields on tour.

Nothing can be done to reverse the decline while the tour remains constrained by PGA Tour influence.

 

[wjemather]

Why won’t they be good enough ?

has the production line just stopped

40 years plus players have been moving to the PGAT - some are good enough some come back after not performing well

That’s not going to change

There also many players that go from the KFT to the PGAT or from the Asia tour etc that aren’t good enough as well

The PGAT won’t close doors off from player pathways

Perhaps not, but the pathway from the DP World Tour will probably be downgraded to the Korn Ferry Tour if almost all the players earning cards prove to be well below the standard required.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

You're either being disingenuous, really don't get it, or are just avoiding the actual issue in favour of being argumentative.

Losing (at most) one or two of the very best a year is very different to giving away 9 or 10 of the next best, and we shouldn't be hoodwinked into pretending they are still full playing members of the tour when they only play 4 or 5 tournaments. Replacing proven players with lesser ones with potential (btw, the likes of David Law, James Morrison, Matt Baldwin, Eddie Pepperell, JC Richie, etc. can hardly be described as "up and coming new talent") weakens >80% of the fields on tour.

Nothing can be done to reverse the decline while the tour remains constrained by PGA Tour influence.

Who is “hoodwinked” into pretending they are full playing members ?

When they have a card on two tours then surely they are going to try and split their time between the two tours in the same way other players have done

And players promoted up are a mixture of ones that lost their card , ones that are up and coming

Which proven players leaving are that much different to the ones replacing them - they have all come up through the rams at some stage

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Perhaps not, but the pathway from the DP World Tour will probably be downgraded to the Korn Ferry Tour if almost all the players earning cards prove to be well below the standard required.

Why would it ?

As we have seen players have shown to be good enough

Wasn’t a recent winner of a PGAT someone that went through the pathway

 

[wjemather]

Why would it ?

As we have seen players have shown to be good enough

Wasn’t a recent winner of a PGAT someone that went through the pathway

2023 DPWT PGAT card winners: 2 wins (MacIntyre & Pavon); 1 runner-up; 6 retained their cards; 3 lost them; 1 joined LIV
2024 DPWT PGAT card winners: 0 wins; 1 runner-up (in the Zurich!!); 3 retained their cards (1 conditional); 6 lost them; 1 joined LIV

If that downward trend continues and/or the number retaining their cards is consistently very low (or zero), there is no longer any justification for offering those cards; particularly when Korn Ferry Tour graduates are significantly outperforming them:
2023 KFT graduates: 4 wins; 7 runner-ups; 18 retained their cards (3 conditional); 12 lost them
2024 KFT graduates: 7 wins; 6 runner-ups; 19 retained their cards (9 conditional); 11 lost them
(NB: 30 players versus 10)

 

[The Squirrel]

2023 DPWT PGAT card winners: 2 wins (MacIntyre & Pavon); 1 runner-up; 6 retained their cards; 3 lost them; 1 joined LIV
2024 DPWT PGAT card winners: 0 wins; 1 runner-up (in the Zurich!!); 3 retained their cards (1 conditional); 6 lost them; 1 joined LIV

If that downward trend continues and/or the number retaining their cards is consistently very low (or zero), there is no longer any justification for offering those cards; particularly when Korn Ferry Tour graduates are significantly outperforming them:
2023 KFT graduates: 4 wins; 7 runner-ups; 17 retained their cards (3 conditional); 11 lost them
2024 KFT graduates: 7 wins; 6 runner-ups; 19 retained their cards (9 conditional); 11 lost them
(NB: 30 players versus 10)

Well class of 2023 DPWT was extremely respectable and 2024's class not so much. I definitely wouldn't be drawing any firm conclusions from a statistical sample of just 10 players per year from just 2 years. With a sample size of 10, annual variance will inevitably be enormous
If the argument is that the KFT sends in stronger players than the DPWT (at least in terms of playing in US conditions) then this seems to be already fairly reflected within the system by the fact they get 3 times as many PGAT spots!

 

[Arthur Wedge]

2023 DPWT PGAT card winners: 2 wins (MacIntyre & Pavon); 1 runner-up; 6 retained their cards; 3 lost them; 1 joined LIV
2024 DPWT PGAT card winners: 0 wins; 1 runner-up (in the Zurich!!); 3 retained their cards (1 conditional); 6 lost them; 1 joined LIV

If that downward trend continues and/or the number retaining their cards is consistently very low (or zero), there is no longer any justification for offering those cards; particularly when Korn Ferry Tour graduates are significantly outperforming them:
2023 KFT graduates: 4 wins; 7 runner-ups; 17 retained their cards (3 conditional); 11 lost them
2024 KFT graduates: 7 wins; 6 runner-ups; 19 retained their cards (9 conditional); 11 lost them
(NB: 30 players versus 10)

Wasn’t Sami V another graduate who has also gone onto win on the PGAT

It’s been two years , yes it’s tough to move from the ET to the PGAT , through history many established European players have struggled , some have taken their time and some have come back

The guys that go across this year may well perform better


If it doesn’t work out then the players stay on the ET

 

[BubbaP]

The players from DPWT gaining a PGAT card but not managing to keep it , if they come straight back to DPWT then DPWT only loses them for a short while. The interesting stat may be who stay over and tries the KFT instead.

I did feel that before the perceived threat (~ 2021), the PGAT team were striving towards:
1. PGAT
2. KFT
3. DPWT

If the proposed PGAT changes go ahead then it could be the push to this direction is back on...

 

[simsini]

DPWT being relegated to third on that list would be a disaster. It would be perfectly reasonable for them to seek an arrangement with LIV if that happened.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

The players from DPWT gaining a PGAT card but not managing to keep it , if they come straight back to DPWT then DPWT only loses them for a short while. The interesting stat may be who stay over and tries the KFT instead.

I did feel that before the perceived threat (~ 2021), the PGAT team were striving towards:
1. PGAT
2. KFT
3. DPWT

If the proposed PGAT changes go ahead then it could be the push to this direction is back on...

Think there are still a lot of strong events on the ET that will see top levels players playing on it - as well as the co sanctions with other tours

The predicted doom of the tour imo is way off - think we will see the likes of Rory playing on more events

And just like this season there are some very good players coming through

 

[simsini]

The game developer EA are being bought out by PIF. How long until we see EA Sports LIV Golf?

 

[Mel Smooth]

The game developer EA are being bought out by PIF. How long until we see EA Sports LIV Golf?

Be amazed if there isn't already something in the works.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1998026783069810943

Is he going to be the first to voluntarily leave ?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Were you extra excited about this?

He may well do, it's inevitable at some point that players will voluntarily leave LIV. The same as he, and others, left the PGA tour.

 

[wjemather]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1998026783069810943

Is he going to be the first to voluntarily leave ?

No. Mostly because several players have previously left "voluntarily". Given how eager you are to present it as evidence of the league's demise every time it happens, I'm surprised you don't remember.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Were you extra excited about this?

He may well do, it's inevitable at some point that players will voluntarily leave LIV. The same as he, and others, left the PGA tour.

Excited ? Nah not at all

Koepka has always seems to be a golfer that is very much one that is on his own and doing it his way etc

He did say something about being worried about being competitive at the top level after his knee injury hence taking the money

 

[Arthur Wedge]

No. Mostly because several players have previously left "voluntarily". Given how eager you are to present it as evidence of the league's demise every time it happens, I'm surprised you don't remember.

Sorry which contracted player has LIV left before voluntarily - I know some have been relegated and not been picked up by others etc etc

Is posting a link from a reliable LIV source that much of an issue for you

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Excited ? Nah not at all

You posted it twice