LIV Golf

[Bdill93]

You understand that this was a verbatim statement from Liv lawyers, right? So are you claiming the lawyers representing Liv are lying? Out of interest, what other glaring holes do you see in the article?

And venue catering doesn't touch the balance sheet of anyone other than the caterers (which may be the venue, or may be outsourced). If, for some reason, they paid Liv to be the caterers of choice, then that money paid to Liv would qualify as Liv revenue. Merch and ticket would qualify as revenue, which were probably their only income streams last year. This really is simple Business 101 I'm afraid.

A majorly high estimate of 10,000 fans per event paying $100 each on these items would make up $7m revenue, which probably qualifies as 'virtually zero' in the context of a spend approaching $1bn. In reality, I would imagine it be somewhere around the $2m mark based on the free tickets given out and lack of fans at some venues.

Ill be honest here - I hadn't until about 30 mins ago when I read a much better article by the mirror which stated as such. Probably should have done further research but where's the fun in that!

10k over 3 days of events would probably be about right for a conservative estimate in the US events. There was more in London due to the free tickets for sure, easy 10k on the final day.

My friend attended all 3 days of LIV Bangkok as he was travelling over there at the time and he said numbers weren't very high out there at all - but no one got in for free that he spoke with.

 

[Whereditgo]

Have you seen or come across one single person who thinks omg the Saudis those guys are alright with all this?

No idea, it's not that often it crops up in conversation. I do suspect that there are plenty of people who are fans of football, boxing, etc, i.e. sports where huge sums of money have come into their sport, that don't think or care where that money comes from though. Not just the Middle East either, I very much doubt that Russian oligarchs gained their wealth in ways most would approve of for example.

 

[ColchesterFC]

The thing that struck me about that article is that it says they spent $784 million on the first season but that didn't include the multi year contracts given to players. $200 million for Mickelson, $150 million for Johnson, $125 million for Bryson, $100 million for Smith. So that's an additional $575 million on top just for those four players. I assume that it's a bit like the Chelsea situation in football with that cost being spread over the length of the contract but it's still a lot of money. I wonder what happens if LIV decided to pull the plug at the end of this year. Would the players still get the full amount they were promised?

 

[MiurasFan]

The thing that struck me about that article is that it says they spent $784 million on the first season but that didn't include the multi year contracts given to players. $200 million for Mickelson, $150 million for Johnson, $125 million for Bryson, $100 million for Smith. So that's an additional $575 million on top just for those four players. I assume that it's a bit like the Chelsea situation in football with that cost being spread over the length of the contract but it's still a lot of money. I wonder what happens if LIV decided to pull the plug at the end of this year. Would the players still get the full amount they were promised?

Depends on the contract!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I did actually try and buy a cap for this very reason - thought Micklesons team cap could be worth something but they had none - and I wasn't spending £80 for the hoodie on a gamble






1) Source?

2) Yeah we know - but its a start and we don't know of any other deals yet other than Americas.

3) We've been through this before - because they had the capital to begin with so didn't need investment to get off the ground, they have the luxury of time and being able to make losses. Better to provide the product and let the sponsors come to you in time rather than delay and go through rounds of sourcing funding when you don't initially need it. Players aren't thick, they wouldn't move if this had no chance of success.

1. the club

2. So they aren’t getting any money in from a media deal

3. So it’s not as you say “start up don’t tend to make money for years” - it’s just LIV because they can’t get sponsers , can’t get media deals so they need the money for Saudi to fully fund them

 

[MiurasFan]

1. the club

2. So they aren’t getting any money in from a media deal

3. So it’s not as you say “start up don’t tend to make money for years” - it’s just LIV because they can’t get sponsers , can’t get media deals so they need the money for Saudi to fully fund them

They will be getting money in from their media deal - just not up-front. But they will still - and probably always - be dependent on PIF for prize money.

 

[Bdill93]

They will be getting money in from their media deal - just not up-front. But they will still - and probably always - be dependent on PIF for prize money.

If that’s the case it will fold. They will be after break even at least… maybe even profits at some stage.

What’s mental about that is - the 2023 prize fund (including all team bonus’s etc) is $405m or $28,928,571 per event.

The average PGA Tour event (from a Forbes article from 2013 - https://www.forbes.com/sites/monteb...ournament-on-the-pga-tour-actually-works/amp/) apparently earns between $8-13 million dollars from a title sponsor. With inflation let’s say that’s now $10-16m. Still a gap of $12m to find per event using the top end number there. They’d need about 10 “tour sponsors” - I suppose like Rolex are for the PGA - to fund $14m a season to plug the gap.

I suppose it’s all feasible, but still mega bucks!

 

[Mel Smooth]

If you look at the growth of the IPL since it's inception, you can see that it's very feasible that LIV will become self sustainable.

 

[MiurasFan]

If that’s the case it will fold. They will be after break even at least… maybe even profits at some stage.

What’s mental about that is - the 2023 prize fund (including all team bonus’s etc) is $405m or $28,928,571 per event.

The average PGA Tour event (from a Forbes article from 2013 - https://www.forbes.com/sites/monteb...ournament-on-the-pga-tour-actually-works/amp/) apparently earns between $8-13 million dollars from a title sponsor. With inflation let’s say that’s now $10-16m. Still a gap of $12m to find per event using the top end number there. They’d need about 10 “tour sponsors” - I suppose like Rolex are for the PGA - to fund $14m a season to plug the gap.

I suppose it’s all feasible, but still mega bucks!

LIV is an entirely different model to existing tours, so direct comparison isn't valid! It'll continue to be around while PIF continues to fund it - but would be unsustainable without it! Any funds raised through things like team franchising would be fairly token compared to the prize money on offer.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

If you look at the growth of the IPL since it's inception, you can see that it's very feasible that LIV will become self sustainable.

Really ?

In what way is it comparable?

The IPL had everything sorted before it started , it also arranged releases for players

Media deals , massive sponsers , owners , sustainable

Huge interest , sell out crowds

And that was from the start

Its everything that LIV isn’t

LIV prob needs to find a £1bn minimum each year to make it anywhere near sustainable

 

[Mel Smooth]

So you don't want to talk about the growth of the IPL (about 10 fold), you want to make the same regurgitated points about what LIV didn't have in it's trial year?

The Australia event has sold out for the Saturday and Sunday. I'll let you now explain to me how that's not a sell out crowd....

LIV was started by a third party - an organisation that didn't exist within golf, the IPL was started by a recognised cricketing body - and that alone substantiates pretty much all the difference you are highlighting.


If the IPL had been started with Saudi funding, with a contentious figure spearheading it, and a biased media operating to protect their existing interests, it would have faced the exact same challenges that LIV has.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So you don't want to talk about the growth of the IPL (about 10 fold), you want to make the same regurgitated points about what LIV didn't have in it's trial year?

The Australia event has sold out for the Saturday and Sunday. I'll let you now explain to me how that's not a sell out crowd....

LIV was started by a third party - an organisation that didn't exist within golf, the IPL was started by a recognised cricketing body - and that alone substantiates pretty much all the difference you are highlighting.


If the IPL had been started with Saudi funding, with a contentious figure spearheading it, and a biased media operating to protect their existing interests, it would have faced the exact same challenges that LIV has.

The points from the first year are still valid for this year

The IPL wasn’t started by Saudi so the point is irrelevant

The same hurdles that faced LIV last season still exist , they haven’t vanished , they still have very little coming in a masses going out

Well done on it selling out for two days in Australia, what about all the others events - it’s always going to be popular there - it fits them perfectly and as their golf hero at the Helm. They can compare the chips on their shoulders

It’s not comparable to the IPL - it would have been comparable to the ICL ( good shout )

 

[doublebogey7]

So you don't want to talk about the growth of the IPL (about 10 fold), you want to make the same regurgitated points about what LIV didn't have in it's trial year?

The Australia event has sold out for the Saturday and Sunday. I'll let you now explain to me how that's not a sell out crowd....

LIV was started by a third party - an organisation that didn't exist within golf, the IPL was started by a recognised cricketing body - and that alone substantiates pretty much all the difference you are highlighting.


If the IPL had been started with Saudi funding, with a contentious figure spearheading it, and a biased media operating to protect their existing interests, it would have faced the exact same challenges that LIV has.

I agree I expect LiV's value to increase 10 fold, but you know 10 x 0 is still zero Rather than going the way of the IPL I predict LiV will go the way of the ICL which was a very much more comparable organisation than the IPL

 

[Mel Smooth]

The points from the first year are still valid for this year

The IPL wasn’t started by Saudi so the point is irrelevant

The same hurdles that faced LIV last season still exist , they haven’t vanished , they still have very little coming in a masses going out

Well done on it selling out for two days in Australia, what about all the others events - it’s always going to be popular there - it fits them perfectly and as their golf hero at the Helm. They can compare the chips on their shoulders

It’s not comparable to the IPL - it would have been comparable to the ICL ( good shout )

What's the ESL Phil?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

What's the ESL Phil?

European Super League which crashed

But as DB said - the ICL is very good comparison

Private funded , didn’t have the backing of the major bodies and ultimately fell apart

 

[Mel Smooth]

European Super League which crashed

So you're wanting to compare something that never actually existed to something that does exist, and try and argue they're just the same??

 

[Mel Smooth]

I agree I expect LiV's value to increase 10 fold, but you know 10 x 0 is still zero Rather than going the way of the IPL I predict LiV will go the way of the ICL which was a very much more comparable organisation than the IPL

Well, you may be right - but I suspect you'll be wrong...

 

[MiurasFan]

If you look at the growth of the IPL since it's inception, you can see that it's very feasible that LIV will become self sustainable.

Ridiculous comparison!

No way LIV is going to have 74 events with nearly 60K spectators each match, even without considering the worldwide broadcasting revenue involved!

 

[Mel Smooth]

Another numpty that missed the essence of the post - which was if LIV GROWS on the same scale as the IPL, it will very much become self sustainable.

 

[doublebogey7]

Another numpty that missed the essence of the post - which was if LIV GROWS on the same scale as the IPL, it will very much become self sustainable.

"If" doing a hell of a lot of lifting there.