Keeping Physical Cards

[mikejohnchapman]

We have been accumulating lots of cards for competitions, new handicaps and General Play rounds and I wondered if we have an obligation to keep them now the scores are all captured on the EG Platform.

I can't find any direct reference and the County aren't interested so why do we need to keep them? If we do for how long?

What do my fellow experts do at their clubs?

 

[rulefan]

We have been accumulating lots of cards for competitions, new handicaps and General Play rounds and I wondered if we have an obligation to keep them now the scores are all captured on the EG Platform.

I can't find any direct reference and the County aren't interested so why do we need to keep them? If we do for how long?

What do my fellow experts do at their clubs?

Contact handicapping@englandgolf.org

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

At the moment I’d have thought that there can’t be any requirement to hold on to physical cards as my club does not required a card submitted when a score has been entered onto our system - either through phone app or clubhouse terminal.

 

[Swango1980]

I have probably over 200 cards lying around my house. All because of lockdown restrictions, and many new members over the last year. There is no way I will ever file them away at the club, like we used to. Furthermore, now that players are entering their scores directly onto howdidido or MyEG, then undoubtedly many will just bin their cards rather than post them at club. There is no way I am going to start chasing players days or weeks down the line for them. The job of handicap secretary has become labour intensive enough.

 

[jim8flog]

This is what is in the manual The question comes - is an electronic record good enough?

Golf Club/Handicap Committee
l A golf club is affiliated to its Authorized Association and is responsible for
ensuring the Handicap Index of those members who have designated it to
be their home club is administered in accordance with the requirements of
the Rules of Handicapping.
l A Handicap Committee is established by a golf club and is responsible for
ensuring compliance with the golf club’s specified obligations and
responsibilities under the Rules of Handicapping.

 

[rulefan]

This is what is in the manual

It doesn't specify the medium used for this history. Certainly no mention of physical cards.

 

[jim8flog]

It doesn't specify the medium used for this history. Certainly no mention of physical cards.

My thinking is that provided the club maintains back ups for the computer system that should be good enough. The National Authority can also provide a good back up because it does not just show the gross score but also the hoe scores as recorded.

Where the EG app has been used a decision has been taken by the club that cards are not needed to be returned to the club.

Having been involved with the handicap side for many years we have never had an occasion where old cards have been needed to be referenced.

 

[nickjdavis]

My thinking is that provided the club maintains back ups for the computer system that should be good enough. The National Authority can also provide a good back up because it does not just show the gross score but also the hoe scores as recorded.

Where the EG app has been used a decision has been taken by the club that cards are not needed to be returned to the club.

Having been involved with the handicap side for many years we have never had an occasion where old cards have been needed to be referenced.

We've just been told by a Regional Handicap Advisor from EG that cards MUST be returned for General Play. Our H'cap sec is up in arms at the additional workload as we've seen a 10 fold increase in the number of General Play cards submitted since the EG app has been generally available....and thats only going to grow once the various issues are sorted out and players learn how to use it properly.

 

[Swango1980]

If our regional handicap officer told us that, then I guess we would just have to forfeit our affiliation. Because I have no time to start chasing all these physical scorecards from the many many general play rounds coming in (along with the many new members we have had submitting scores for handicap), and the fact we've been asked to avoid touching physical cards for the best part of a year. I'd be happy if someone at the club was willing to take over, maybe someone who has been vaccinated and not worried about getting Covid. But I am pretty sure there won't be anybody jumping at the opportunity to become handicap sec and spending hours collecting and chasing physical scorecards, when most members are entering their scores themselves or sending photos due to Covid restrictions.

 

[AliMc]

At the moment I’d have thought that there can’t be any requirement to hold on to physical cards as my club does not required a card submitted when a score has been entered onto our system - either through phone app or clubhouse terminal.

This all day long, we use either the Scottish Golf app which requires you to add your pp's name, phone no. and signature or the IG app which requires a photo of the card, don't know why a physical card is needed now

 

[nickjdavis]

If our regional handicap officer told us that, then I guess we would just have to forfeit our affiliation. Because I have no time to start chasing all these physical scorecards from the many many general play rounds coming in (along with the many new members we have had submitting scores for handicap), and the fact we've been asked to avoid touching physical cards for the best part of a year. I'd be happy if someone at the club was willing to take over, maybe someone who has been vaccinated and not worried about getting Covid. But I am pretty sure there won't be anybody jumping at the opportunity to become handicap sec and spending hours collecting and chasing physical scorecards, when most members are entering their scores themselves or sending photos due to Covid restrictions.

A simple "thumb up like" doesn't do this post justice.

We are wondering who is going to be employed by EG to process/validate all the "nomad golfer" score returns when that system becomes operational. I think someone in EG is going to get a big shock at the general "quality" of returned cards...even if they accept photo submissions. Then and only then will they perhaps realise what they've unleashed.

 

[Swango1980]

A simple "thumb up like" doesn't do this post justice.

We are wondering who is going to be employed by EG to process/validate all the "nomad golfer" score returns when that system becomes operational. I think someone in EG is going to get a big shock at the general "quality" of returned cards...even if they accept photo submissions. Then and only then will they perhaps realise what they've unleashed.

I've not yet read through the requirements for nomad golfers if they go through this process, but I would be intrigued if they need to submit physical cards (I cannot rely on members to post cards in a box at their own club, good luck if they need to post them to England Golf at Woodhall Spa). If the nomad golfer thing really takes off, good luck to the England Golf staff.

 

[Griffsters]

The number of incorrectly entered scores into the app is a tad worrying also. Quite a number need cross-referencing with playing partner cards etc. We keep comp cards for a week in case of dispute or discrepancy arise. Some cards are kept longer for monitoring where there is potential for manipulation or working the system.

Is the card still king? At this point, it has to be IMHO. However once verified and on the MyEG platform they can be discarded as a permanent and backed up record is available.

 

[fundy]

Can I ask a question please as currently injured so not submitted a digital card?

When you submit, do you just submit your gross score or is it like the paper version where the card would have both player and markers score on it?

Surely if each player entered their own score and the markers score the system could easily cross reference 2 cards and say 95% of entries would immediately be double checked as fine and you would just be left to look into the ones where the 2 returned scores werent the same. Or am I missing something?

 

[rulefan]

You only enter one set of scores - your own. Depending on the app, it seems, you have the option of identifying your marker who will get a prompt to verify your scores.

 

[jim8flog]

One thought I had is

Is a County Official really going to find all the cards one player. We have 3 -4 comps a week some with 100+ players. Imagine how boxes of cards that is. If you were a County Official would you like to have to go through that lot to find all of one player's cards.

Needles in a haystack comes to mind.

 

[Swango1980]

One thought I had is

Is a County Official really going to find all the cards one player. We have 3 -4 comps a week some with 100+ players. Imagine how boxes of cards that is. If you were a County Official would you like to have to go through that lot to find all of one player's cards.

Needles in a haystack comes to mind.

I picked up another 40 cards from club today, and we are not a big club. I'll be binning them quickly. I have several hundred lying about my house now, if I had to file them away I'd need storage as big as the National Library.

I'm definitely concerned about the number of no returns / no score entry after players signed in for general play. Also clear several pre registered after their round. Hopefully my email yesterday has given members a heads up to submit their scores.

I wonder how England Golf will manage no returns, there is bound to be some players that regularly fail to submit scores. Big admin job

 

[rulefan]

One thought I had is

Is a County Official really going to find all the cards one player. We have 3 -4 comps a week some with 100+ players. Imagine how boxes of cards that is. If you were a County Official would you like to have to go through that lot to find all of one player's cards.

Needles in a haystack comes to mind.

Where does a County Official come into it?

 

[Old Skier]

I picked up another 40 cards from club today, and we are not a big club. I'll be binning them quickly. I have several hundred lying about my house now, if I had to file them away I'd need storage as big as the National Library.

I'm definitely concerned about the number of no returns / no score entry after players signed in for general play. Also clear several pre registered after their round. Hopefully my email yesterday has given members a heads up to submit their scores.

I wonder how England Golf will manage no returns, there is bound to be some players that regularly fail to submit scores. Big admin job

We hold County meetings every 2 months, our next on will have an update on nomads and how things are (not) progressing as one of our officials is on the steering group. I will try and pick up on some of the issues raised here.

On the keeping of cards issue, I have know one club who were audited by county and had to produce the last years cards.

 

[Swango1980]

We hold County meetings every 2 months, our next on will have an update on nomads and how things are (not) progressing as one of our officials is on the steering group. I will try and pick up on some of the issues raised here.

On the keeping of cards issue, I have know one club who were audited by county and had to produce the last years cards.

Crikey. They can come round to my house, I'll put the kettle on and we can trawl through what I have on my floor. We can then put together a big spreadsheet to cross reference electronic scores members have entered, and where we can find no card. In doing so, I will go through my hundreds and hundreds of emails, whatsapp messages, Facebook messages and texts to see the ones that were sent that way.

More realistic answer would be: sorry, we don't have them, so do what you need to do.