I don't expect anyone to answer this...

[chrisd]

I think that the single most important thing about these shots(and all golf shots for that matter) is to be absolutely sure that you accelerate through impact. The reason for almost every duffed shot is the shot where you think that you've gone into the backswing too far/fast and de-accelerate through the shot - its doomed to failure


Chris

 

[timgolfy]

Thanks Bob. That's it exactly - knowing how to consistently control the pace of the swing. Over the last couple of days I've practiced with nothing by by 60wedge chipping and pitching in to the greens just learning the effect of shaft angle and differing lies. Consistency and is now reasonable (I can deliver 8 out of 10 identical consecutive shots, so the basic technique is looking good), just judging the speed for the initial shot is the unknown.

I understand what people are saying about "feeling".

My take on it is this:
Stage 1: Deciding on shot, given the lie, the size of green, speed of green, hazards, roll.
Stage 2: Being able to deliver the club head (at the required angle and angle of attack) at the required speed (read "nudge", or "finesse", or "touch").

I accept that Stage 1 is purely down to experience and knowledge (call it "skill), and no two golfers will probably see the same shot. What I'm trying to understand is a consistent way to deliver the speed in Stage 2 so that looking at a fresh shot you'd know how much pace the club requires.

From what I gather so far, one way of achieving this is to have a constant, repeatable rhythm (then vary the backswing accordingly, based on experience).

Talking about metronomes, just seen this: Eyeling Golf Metronome

 

[bobmac]

How much???

http://www.musicroom.com/se/ID_No/0441628/details.html

Better

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Would it be accurate to say that power is controlled by tempo and length of backswing. Keep the tempo the same, then vary the backswing = more or less clubhead speed. So then the problem becomes one of, how to keep a constant tempo (metronome style)?

It comes from not being too analytical and letting your brain co- ordinate the swing speed and distance to achieve a golf shot that you've visualised. If you throw a ball 20 yards to someone you dont think about every aspect you just do it naturally - short game shots feel the same


Chris

And this Tim is the bit you need to understand, the bit I was trying to explain last week why I did chip and putt well when I start thinking about it. It's not as you suggested because I have poor technique, it's because when you think about it, you cloud your body's natural ability.

What we are talking about here is letting go, detatching your concious mind from your sub-concious and just letting your body get on with it. When you do something over and over again your sub-concious mind will learn what to do, your concious mind will learn what it thinks it had to do which is invariably wrong.

How many times do you see players walk up to a meaningless 10ft putt and without stopping or thinking, knock it towards the hole and watch it drop. Most people laugh at this and make some comment about being able to do it when it doesn't matter - but they fail to grasp the point of it. The ball didn't go in through luck, it went in because without realising it, they detatched themselves from the task in hand and let the body get on with it.

I'll give you another non golf related example. A few years ago, I had both knees operated on at the same time, I limped around for a few weeks until the physio said I had to try to walk normally. So I stood up and thought about how to walk, do you think I could do it? I've been walking all my life and now all of a sudden I don't know how to. I couldn't for the life of me work out what I needed to do to walk. The reason for this is that walking is complicated, it involves a lot of muscles and movements that it simply isn't possible for your concious mind to understand. It happens from within because your body has learned what to do subconciously.

The short game is a lot like this, there are a lot of minute things that happen when you chip and putt and it simply isn't possible to conciously make all the required calculations to be successful.

 

[timgolfy]

And this Tim is the bit you need to understand, the bit I was trying to explain last week why I did chip and putt well when I start thinking about it. It's not as you suggested because I have poor technique, it's because when you think about it, you cloud your body's natural ability.

To be fair, Hawkeye, last week you said you duffed some shots and hit two balls out of bounds. That has nothing to do with touch and feel.

I think we agree on the rest of it, about training the brain to perform certain actions. However, in relation to the short game there is a lot of conscious mental processing which takes place - the conscious analysis and selection of shot using the higher brain. Even sinking a 10 foot putt ultimately start with reading a green, identifying breaks and grain, then choosing a line and pace. After that conscious decision-making process I agree 100% that the rest comes down to clearing the mind and letting the brain do what it has been trained to do.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

To be fair, Hawkeye, last week you said you duffed some shots and hit two balls out of bounds. That has nothing to do with touch and feel.

Yes I did hit 2 OB on 17 & 18 out of pure frustration but most of the post was about not being able to chip and putt when I started thinking about it. I wasn't actually complaining about the OBs and up until the 17th tee, I'd hardly hit a bad shot all day, what let me down was what we are talking about here. Still, that's not important, what's important is that we finally agree on something

 

[timgolfy]

Yes, regarding the jitters I can understand how that is a direct cause of too much mental tinkering.

You measure an 8foot putt and judge how much pace to add to the ball. You look from different angles and carefully select your line. You stand above the ball and think: "this looks a bit different now - I'll aim it a little to the right". During the backswing you think: "you know what? I'll need to add a little more to this as I want to make sure I don't leave it short - wouldn't that look silly". Suddenly your hitting 2 inches wide and 4 foot past. Then looking for a new putter because the other one "pushes".

 

[chrisd]

most of the post was about not being able to chip and putt when I started thinking about it.

Tim.... Hawkeye is so spot on about this

The point is that most players are guilty of over analysing chips and putts. The 10ft putt will go in because your brain calculates in a fraction the stuff it need to in order to hit the ball in the cup. We then look at it from all angles, judge the pace again, convince ourselves that our original thoughts were wrong, re calculate and then miss the putt. Almost all golfers will tell you that, when they drain a long putt, that they saw the line as soon as they looked, trusted it and were right - its exactly the same with pitches and chips. The more you analise the more you miss in my experience

Chris

 

[viscount17]

If you keep the momentum equal for your putting then the length of the backswing determines how 'hard' you strike the ball. Simples.

But how do you groove that feeling of momentum so that it doesn't change from hole to hole and day to day?

buy yourself a metronome - an electronic one with headphones.
set the 'beat' to whatever's comfortable, say 1 sec.
put on said headphones. now use the beat to time your backswing and forward stroke - also stops you decelerating
no matter how far back you take the club the timing is always the same - longer = faster = further

(of course, off 20 I know nothing and this is must therefore be disregarded)

 

[Region3]

If you keep the momentum equal for your putting then the length of the backswing determines how 'hard' you strike the ball. Simples.

But how do you groove that feeling of momentum so that it doesn't change from hole to hole and day to day?

buy yourself a metronome - an electronic one with headphones.
set the 'beat' to whatever's comfortable, say 1 sec.
put on said headphones. now use the beat to time your backswing and forward stroke - also stops you decelerating
no matter how far back you take the club the timing is always the same - longer = faster = further

Unless I've misunderstood, I've got to disagree with that.

On my shots at least, the time from takeaway to impact will be less the shorter the backswing is.

Region3, how do you how fast to swing the club to replicate those shots?

I'm not thinking about how fast to swing the club. I try to swing with the same acceleration on each shot. If the backswing is shorter then the club has less time accelerating on the downswing and will therefore be travelling slower than a full swing at impact.

As soon as I try to vary the speed of the swing (slowing down especially) the timing between hips, shoulders, arms etc has a tendency to fall to pieces.

 

[NWJocko]

most of the post was about not being able to chip and putt when I started thinking about it.

Tim.... Hawkeye is so spot on about this

The point is that most players are guilty of over analysing chips and putts. The 10ft putt will go in because your brain calculates in a fraction the stuff it need to in order to hit the ball in the cup. We then look at it from all angles, judge the pace again, convince ourselves that our original thoughts were wrong, re calculate and then miss the putt. Almost all golfers will tell you that, when they drain a long putt, that they saw the line as soon as they looked, trusted it and were right - its exactly the same with pitches and chips. The more you analise the more you miss in my experience

Chris

I couldn't agree with you more chrisd.

I have stopped taking any practice "swings" as such with the putter at all.

I have a quick look for the line I think it is, put the line on the ball that way then stand up, no practices, look at the hole and hit the putt.

I've found my distance control much more consistent this way as normally, as you say, your first instinct on line and length is correct and then all the faffing about gets you away from that.

In my own opinion of course.......

 

[Matty]

If we are getting all physics about this then the length of the back swing will affect the potential club head speed at the point of impact.

The down swing accelerates the club so on a full swing you have more time to accelerate and therefore reach a higher speed.

I guess that tempo comes into it too, you could swing the club back less, increase the tempo so you essentially swing harder or faster and reach the same speed as you would for a longer swing.

'Feel' must therefore be how one gets familiar with maintaining a certain tempo while altering back swing length or conversely changing tempo while keeping the swing length the same.

At the end of the day this is not something that is easily done on a range as you need to see:
- how the ball lands and reacts on a green or fairway
- how uphill and downhill lies affect flight
- which club you need to use from certain distances
- how to account for on-course obstacles like trees, bushes, bunkers and lakes

 

[timgolfy]

UPDATE:
I spent a couple of hours practicing chipping and short pitching today using the metronome method (though counting in my head using the words: One Potato Two) and adjusting the backswing. I found the results mildly encouraging. After a few attempts (x15) of various lengths I could stand over the ball and know roughly what length of backswing to use on the shot. However, I was now contacting the ball less consistently, possibly because the tempo was a little slow for me. When on the round I faced a few similar length chips which I now knew how hard to hit (length of swing), which gave me confidence (contact was poor, however).

What I now believe is that it's very difficult to measure the tempo based purely on the backswing (because it's so short and difficult to identify the starting and ending points), that it would probably be best to measure against a full follow through first (so a few practice swings to get the tempo sorted). I wasn't doing this, but will do in future.

However, I now have a starting point from which to work.
Thanks for all the advice.