Haotong Li penalty

[Slab]

Disagree with your assumption. The ruling bodies decided that the Rule had not been breached because the caddie was not in a wrong position when the player began taking his stance for the stroke.

But the on course rules guys (representing the USGA/R&A) must have been locked in with 100% certainty that the caddie was in the wrong position, otherwise they wouldn't have issued the penalty.
It wasn't a case of doubt or maybe yeah/maybe no... or they wouldn't (couldn't) penalise. This isn't a decision that had to be made in realtime without the benefit of video footage, thy had hours to determine it

How do you go from nailed on 100% breach to no breach?

 

[rulefan]

But the on course rules guys (representing the USGA/R&A) must have been locked in with 100% certainty that the caddie was in the wrong position, otherwise they wouldn't have issued the penalty.
It wasn't a case of doubt or maybe yeah/maybe no... or they wouldn't (couldn't) penalise. This isn't a decision that had to be made in realtime without the benefit of video footage, thy had hours to determine it

How do you go from nailed on 100% breach to no breach?

There would be no on course officials representing the USGA. The referees were from the PGA panel (presumably directed by Slugger White)
As it was outside the R&A jurisdiction (I assume you are talking about the Phoenix) it was not involved.

The PGA referee(s) made a ruling but it was wrong. As the Rules provide, the USGA (as the ultimate authority for the USA and Mexico) was approached and made the decision that the ruling was wrong and the Phoenix committee corrected their rulings. It is not clear if the players appealed or if the PGA made a direct approach.
The USGA and R&A (as the Rules authors and administrators) jointly issued a statement.

It is interesting to note that no comment was made about the Haotong Li event as the rulings there were correct. I haven't seen any reference to an appeal made by the players or the European Tour the the R&A but there would have been no need.
The referees there would have been from the ET panel directed by John Paramor.

 

[Slab]

There would be no on course officials representing the USGA. The referees were from the PGA panel (presumably directed by Slugger White)
As it was outside the R&A jurisdiction (I assume you are talking about the Phoenix) it was not involved.

The PGA referee(s) made a ruling but it was wrong. As the Rules provide, the USGA (as the ultimate authority for the USA and Mexico) was approached and made the decision that the ruling was wrong and the Phoenix committee corrected their rulings. It is not clear if the players appealed or if the PGA made a direct approach.
The USGA and R&A (as the Rules authors and administrators) jointly issued a statement.

It is interesting to note that no comment was made about the Haotong Li event as the rulings there were correct. I haven't seen any reference to an appeal made by the players or the European Tour the the R&A but there would have been no need.
The referees there would have been from the ET panel directed by John Paramor.

Thanks, I've wrongly assumed that the on course guys (PGA as you say) would have been trained/qualified by the USGA/R&A (which is kinda where I was going when I said representing) as this was a matter involving a Rule of Golf (USGA/R&A) and not a comp rule (PGA)

 

[rulefan]

Thanks, I've wrongly assumed that the on course guys (PGA as you say) would have been trained/qualified by the USGA/R&A (which is kinda where I was going when I said representing) as this was a matter involving a Rule of Golf (USGA/R&A) and not a comp rule (PGA)

They certainly will have be trained by one or the other (probably USGA) but will only recently have completed the new rules training. I doubt that any more time would have been spent on this rule as opposed to any of the other significant changes. Individual referees will probably have been on different courses with different presenters.
Of course this big an exercise will take time to bed down.

I don't know what special instructions were given to the PGA team but Paramor was very keen to get the message across to the ET team and the players (even giving them special leaflets).

 

[clubchamp98]

Breach or no breach?

Yes I think so.

 

[duncan mackie]

What are termed clarifications have now been issued over this rule, and it's application.

One basically reverses the original rule that you couldn't avoid a penalty by starting again, except on the putting green - which were the crux of the USGA incidents. The other covers the concept of deliberate and accidental.

The two clarifications provided today can be summarised as follows: Meaning of “Begins Taking a Stance for the Stroke”:If a player backs away from a stance, the player is not considered to have begun“ a stance for the stroke”. Therefore, a player can now back away from his or her stance anywhere on the course and avoid a breach of Rule 10.2b(4) if the caddie had been standing in a location behind the ball. Examples of When a Caddie is Not “Deliberately” Standing Behind the Ball When a Player Begins Taking Stance for Stroke: As written, the Rule does not apply if a caddie is not deliberately standing behind a player. It is clarified that the term “deliberately” requires a caddie to be aware that 1) the player is beginning to take a stance for the stroke to be played and 2) he or she (the caddie) is standing on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball. Several examples are given in the clarification to provide additional guidance.

 

[rulefan]

See the full story here

https://www.randa.org/en/news/2019/02/t ... rule-10-2b

 

[3offTheTee]

What do you expect to happen in a Texas scramble now please?
I realise it is not an ‘accepted competition’by R and A (wrong phrase but sure you know what I mean)

Will it be up to The Committee or Within the terms of The COC?

 

[Imurg]

So a caddy can still "line up" his player as long as the player steps out and steps in again....

 

[rulefan]

So a caddy can still "line up" his player as long as the player steps out and steps in again....

Yes but the player has to remember his exact setup. Seemingly a difficult task for some.

 

[rulie]

So a caddy can still "line up" his player as long as the player steps out and steps in again....

The following is part of the clarification:
"If either the player or caddie is attempting to circumvent the primary purpose of Rule 10.2b(4), which is to ensure that aiming at the intended target is a challenge that the player must overcome alone, the caddies's actions are treated as being deliberate."

 

[Slab]

The following is part of the clarification:
"If either the player or caddie is attempting to circumvent the primary purpose of Rule 10.2b(4), which is to ensure that aiming at the intended target is a challenge that the player must overcome alone, the caddies's actions are treated as being deliberate."

But the player now has the option to back off and avoid penalty?



While I'm pleased they've taken action, the first one (backing off when not on green) can hardly be described as a clarification, its an out an out change to the rule. Not sure why the bodies wouldn't just admit to that

And other than today a player can back off and retake his stance to avoid the penalty, last weekend the rules stated he couldn't, so I'm still not certain why the penalties were rescinded. The caddie's actions of his position to the line and looking down the line were deliberate and clear to see on tv (intent is something else)

 

[bobmac]

All the players you see on tour started somewhere.
They became very good golfers without the help of a caddy and won their place on tour.
In other words, these guys can line themselves up without a caddy.

I don't think for a second the caddy is standing there saying left a bit, right a bit etc, he is there just to confirm his player is aiming straight.
''Perfect boss'' is probably the most the caddy ever says.
So all a storm in a tea-cup in my opinion.

 

[robinthehood]

All the players you see on tour started somewhere.
They became very good golfers without the help of a caddy and won their place on tour.
In other words, these guys can line themselves up without a caddy.

I don't think for a second the caddy is standing there saying left a bit, right a bit etc, he is there just to confirm his player is aiming straight.
''Perfect boss'' is probably the most the caddy ever says.
So all a storm in a tea-cup in my opinion.

It was particularly bad on the ladies tour. And it looked exactly like left a bit right a bit.