Greensomes Dispute

bumpandrun

New member
Joined
May 5, 2023
Messages
4
Visit site
Hi, I was playing a greensomes last night and it had to be suspended until we resolved this following issue. If you guys could help it would be greatly appreciated.

Context

My partner and I both played our tee shots down the 6th and chose to play my drive. My partner then played my ball and it landed short right side of the green. I then chipped the ball onto the green where it landed approximately 15 feet short of the pin. My partner was then getting ready to putt, so I walked over to him and asked him if he was okay before he putted. As he was getting ready to address the ball I noticed that there was some mud on it. As we were still using my ball I wanted to be the one who cleaned it, so I marked it, lifted it, cleaned it and then placed it back on its original spot. However, before lifting the marker, I adjusted the ball so that the line on the ball was aiming to where I thought it would break (out of habit, my partner doesn't line his balls up). My playing partner then holed out for the win, but we were then told by our opponents that my actions breached the rules - "I am not allowed to line up the ball". After a bit of an argument, play was suspended until we can get it resolved.

After reading Rule 22 and Rule 14, it doesn't specify anything about lining the ball up, however, it does say in Rule 22.2 that "Either partner may take any allowed action for the side before the stroke is made, such as to mark the spot of the ball and lift, replace, drop and place the ball, no matter which partners turn it is to play next for the side".

Anyway, I hope you guys can help me on this issue. I have sent an email to the club also, but it's always good to get a second opinion.
Also, what would the penalty be? One stroke (we would half) or loss of hole?

Thanks
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

Major Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2012
Messages
32,498
Visit site
As ever, and as the rules guys will say, the OP just needs to ask their opponents to point to the rule that is being breached. Because in this instance I have no idea what they could be getting this action confused with given we ‘all’ know that many actions carried out as a team are allowed that are not allowed as individuals. Indeed much, if not most, of the time the team is allowed to do anything an individual player can do.

We really should always, esp when playing in a match or comp, carry a copy of the rules with us, or have access to them using a phone app or similar.
 

Orikoru

Tour Winner
Joined
Nov 1, 2016
Messages
25,829
Location
Watford
Visit site
I think they are talking nonsense. You are playing as a team so surely you can mark and clean the ball and put it down facing any way you like, just as a caddie would do.

And as a sidenote, I hate people who try and pick on minor rule breaches like this, especially when they've completely made it up. Just play golf for God's sake.
 

doublebogey7

Head Pro
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,862
Location
Leicester
Visit site
Firstly you should not have suspended play in orer to resolve a dispute. Your opponents should have requested a ruling, if no official was available to make such a ruling play should have continued until such time an official was available, Rule 20.1b.

It's not clear to me what rule your opponents thought had been breached. Best to just let them raise a dispute with your committee and let them resolve.
 

Orikoru

Tour Winner
Joined
Nov 1, 2016
Messages
25,829
Location
Watford
Visit site
Firstly you should not have suspended play in orer to resolve a dispute. Your opponents should have requested a ruling, if no official was available to make such a ruling play should have continued until such time an official was available, Rule 20.1b.

It's not clear to me what rule your opponents thought had been breached. Best to just let them raise a dispute with your committee and let them resolve.
How do you continue a match if you have no idea who's won the hole though? Given that it dictates whose honour it is, or if you even continue or not (given that the match might be over if one team wins the hole).
 

doublebogey7

Head Pro
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,862
Location
Leicester
Visit site
How do you continue a match if you have no idea who's won the hole though? Given that it dictates whose honour it is, or if you even continue or not (given that the match might be over if one team wins the hole).
You continue play with the assumption that all players had played by the rules, but recognising that the score may not be correct. Them the rules and I am really not sure how it could be any other way, given that matches have to be completed by given dates. No club as officials sitting waiting to give a ruling.
 

Orikoru

Tour Winner
Joined
Nov 1, 2016
Messages
25,829
Location
Watford
Visit site
You continue play with the assumption that all players had played by the rules, but recognising that the score may not be correct. Them the rules and I am really not sure how it could be any other way, given that matches have to be completed by given dates. No club as officials sitting waiting to give a ruling.
I get it, I would just find it very difficult personally. You could potentially be either 1 up or 1 down dependant on a ruling, and you might play your remaining holes very differently if you're in front or behind. But then I have the rules app on my phone, so I would likely scour through that until we found the ruling, letting groups play through as necessary of course.
 

salfordlad

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
896
Visit site
There are absolutely no rules breach with your actions. Your opponents were off with the fairies. The key rules references are clarification 14.2c/1. which affirms that a ball can be returned into play aligned towards the hole. 22.2 (foursomes) and 23.5 (four ball) affirms that either player may take any legal action with the partner's ball. The Greensomes will be consistent with those.
And as others note, the match should not have been stopped, it should have played out in both possible states of the ruling and then consult the Committee unless the answer could have been obtained while the match continued.
 

bumpandrun

New member
Joined
May 5, 2023
Messages
4
Visit site
Well, unfortunately it led to a disagreement on the tee - one of them conceded the match as he thought we were denying that he benefitted from my alignment of the golf ball. It was all a bit of a messy blur to be honest. We were all gutted by it as we were 4 up thru 6. They have since apologised for the misunderstanding. We’ve offered to play the rest of the match as it was my playing partners first match play game and he never got to enjoy the experience, and they have accepted after much persuasion. I will update with the result
 

doublebogey7

Head Pro
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,862
Location
Leicester
Visit site
I get it, I would just find it very difficult personally. You could potentially be either 1 up or 1 down dependant on a ruling, and you might play your remaining holes very differently if you're in front or behind. But then I have the rules app on my phone, so I would likely scour through that until we found the ruling, letting groups play through as necessary of course.
If yopu are confident that you have done the right thing then continue as if nothing as happened. For me that would be preferable to spending time trying to convince my opponents that I was right. Also finding the correct rule on the app isn't always easy and ypour opponenets may not be convinced anyway.
 

jim8flog

Journeyman Pro
Joined
May 20, 2017
Messages
14,968
Location
Yeovil
Visit site
Tr
Well, unfortunately it led to a disagreement on the tee - one of them conceded the match as he thought we were denying that he benefitted from my alignment of the golf ball. It was all a bit of a messy blur to be honest. We were all gutted by it as we were 4 up thru 6. They have since apologised for the misunderstanding. We’ve offered to play the rest of the match as it was my playing partners first match play game and he never got to enjoy the experience, and they have accepted after much persuasion. I will update with the result

Trouble is you are now under a different rule

Rule 3.2b (2)

(2) How Concessions Are Made. A concession is made only when clearly
communicated:
• This can be done either verbally or by an action that clearly shows the player’s intent.
.
A concession is final and cannot be declined or withdrawn.

I see you as now being at a potential disadvantage. You may have been playing very well on the day and they very badly and this could easily be reversed on another day.
 

Banchory Buddha

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 10, 2021
Messages
2,039
Visit site
Well, unfortunately it led to a disagreement on the tee - one of them conceded the match as he thought we were denying that he benefitted from my alignment of the golf ball. It was all a bit of a messy blur to be honest. We were all gutted by it as we were 4 up thru 6. They have since apologised for the misunderstanding. We’ve offered to play the rest of the match as it was my playing partners first match play game and he never got to enjoy the experience, and they have accepted after much persuasion. I will update with the result
You have the next round to play
 

salfordlad

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
896
Visit site
Well, unfortunately it led to a disagreement on the tee - one of them conceded the match as he thought we were denying that he benefitted from my alignment of the golf ball. It was all a bit of a messy blur to be honest. We were all gutted by it as we were 4 up thru 6. They have since apologised for the misunderstanding. We’ve offered to play the rest of the match as it was my playing partners first match play game and he never got to enjoy the experience, and they have accepted after much persuasion. I will update with the result
As Jim also notes, Rule 3.2b does not permit this, the match is over as you have no authority to over-ride the concession. If you play any more with these folk it will only be social play, it cannot change the result of the match.
 

Steven Rules

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 18, 2022
Messages
589
Visit site
As Jim also notes, Rule 3.2b does not permit this, the match is over as you have no authority to over-ride the concession. If you play any more with these folk it will only be social play, it cannot change the result of the match.
I echo Salfordlad and Jim.

Furthermore, it was their lack of understanding of the Rules that started all this, further compounded by them in conceding the match. Why should you be bending over backwards (and breaking the Rules yourselves) to try and make up for their actions and ignorance?
 
Last edited:
Top