Handicaps controversial?

[Ethan]

Handicaps are basically ways of interpreting data, in this case golf scores. You can set up a data system to do what you want - reflect potential, reflect realistic (average) scores, reflect worst case, whatever, and be as sensitive to change as you like.

The UK system is biased towards scores you are less than averagely likely to score. This is because the correction for a good score is greater than for a bad score, so it is asymmetrical and weighted towards good scores. The US system uses (basically) average of the best 10 of the last 20 scores. That is close to the average of the 5th and 6th (midpoint of 1 to 10) best scores, or approximately the 25-30th percentile score. In effect, they systems have similar outcomes, except that the US system is also based on course ratings, which tend to run higher than SSS. Even fairly easy courses there have a course rating of 71 or 72.

Also, US handicaps are based on all scores, and most US golfers play few competitions, so they tend to include better scores with no pressure.

That leads to US handicaps being a couple of shots or 3 lower than the UK. A 6 handicap in the US would probably be an 8 or 9 here.

I played with a guy in California and after a couple of holes asked him what his handicap was. If he had asked me, I would have guessed a 10. He said 1. I replied, "no seriously, what is it?", and he got a bit shirty and said "its a 1!!". "Ok, mate, whatever you say". I have played with plenty of low single figure handicappers, and I guarantee this guy would never be a 1 in any club over here.

 

[Oggie41]

I lost 3 competitions last year on count-back, all to higher handicappers. Surely this should be altered to always award the lower handicapper the win in the case of a draw instead of using count-back?
(although I'm sure this would come back and bite me as I'm a highish handicapper myself )

 

[RGDave]

I think if h/c’s were based on potential it would remove a lot of the problems.

I'd like to agree with you but a few things spring to mind.
Everyone is entitled to a lucky round now and again.....cutting directly to the "score" managed on an given day would not be ideal unless the player can go back up almost as quickly. I'd be more than happy to get cut 0.4 or even 0.5 per stroke IF I could get 0.3 back....
(but that's irrelevant as it's crazy thinking).

I don't believe many h'caps are truly based on potential. Mine's not, and I wouldn't want to play off 6 or 7 just because I can, when I get lucky.

There's a million permutations to the current system, but it's fine as it is i.m.o. I just wish more cards would count.

 

[RGDave]

I lost 3 competitions last year on count-back, all to higher handicappers. Surely this should be altered to always award the lower handicapper the win in the case of a draw instead of using count-back?
(although I'm sure this would come back and bite me as I'm a highish handicapper myself )

You know what? I agree with you. Forget countback, give it to the better player.
Simples.

 

[Tiger]

This has been absolutely fascinating to follow. I'm hoping to be well enough to play in my first medal on Saturday a competition that seems destined to be won by a high h/capper.

In athletics they run an age system for cross country. Everyone races everyone and the overall winner is the overall winner. But they award prizes for the best in age of 35-44, 45-54, 55-64 and 65+.

Why not apply a similar approach to all club competitions, using handicap bands instead of ages.? 0-6, 7-13, 14-20 & 21-28. That way it's one comp, the overall winner is the best player against scratch on the day, everyone aspires to attain a lower handicap, but the best scorers in each band are rewarded/recognised.

I'd be made up to win my bracket but would still want to be a better player.

 

[muttleee]

Forget countback, give it to the better player.

So if you're all square on the 18th tee, the lower handicapper can play it safe while the higher handicapper has to go for it?

 

[jammydodger]

I lost 3 competitions last year on count-back, all to higher handicappers. Surely this should be altered to always award the lower handicapper the win in the case of a draw instead of using count-back?
(although I'm sure this would come back and bite me as I'm a highish handicapper myself )

You know what? I agree with you. Forget countback, give it to the better player.
Simples.

My mate has always advocated this and i'm inclined to agree with him. I shoot 74-5=69 and he shoots 78-9=69 , I win cos I shot the best score. He totally agrees

Some very interesting points of view on this thread and I find myself agreeing with most of them

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I disagree. Unless it is a gross scoring event (club championship for example) then I think countback is a perfectly fair way. It works at local Opens and pro-ams. It's a pretty fair reflection of how you finished (were you hanging on?) and so rewards the player who held it together better.

 

[Oggie41]

So if you're all square on the 18th tee, the lower handicapper can play it safe while the higher handicapper has to go for it?

Exactly. Why shouldn't the better player be rewarded?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

So if you're all square on the 18th tee, the lower handicapper can play it safe while the higher handicapper has to go for it?

Exactly. Why shouldn't the better player be rewarded?

Utter pish. Unless it is a gross scoring event what's the point in having a handicap. Might as well just let cat 1 players play all the medals and stablefords on their own

 

[Screwback]

So the guy who plays off cat1 plays the last nine i 1 under gross should loose because he has been hanging on. no chance and the guy that shot plenty has beat him by 1 cause hes off 20 thats just no fair whos the better golfer TBH if you cant go round in a reasonable gross score should you really be playing comps?

 

[muttleee]

Why shouldn't the better player be rewarded?

Because.

 

[jammydodger]

As Bob said earlier , you practice and practice and practice and get better and better til one day you can get your ass handed to you by someone who rolls up once a month and shoots 8 under his h/c

 

[Oggie41]

Utter pish. Unless it is a gross scoring event what's the point in having a handicap. Might as well just let cat 1 players play all the medals and stablefords on their own

Rubbish. Overall the lower handicapper scored better so they DESERVE to be awarded the win. For club competitions it's not a case of "hanging on" anyway as you've no idea of what others are scoring - it's not like you've got live leaderboards on the course.

I'm off a higher handicap so am hardly biased on this one.

 

[muttleee]

For club competitions it's not a case of "hanging on" anyway as you've no idea of what others are scoring - it's not like you've got live leaderboards on the course.

But a guy who shoots 1 under his handicap when the pressure's on over the last few holes seems a more worthy winner than someone who dings the last (if they both end up with the same score).

 

[IM01]

As Bob said earlier , you practice and practice and practice and get better and better til one day you can get your ass handed to you by someone who rolls up once a month and shoots 8 under his h/c.

Speaks a lot of sense that Bob

 

[Canfordhacker]

Great thread guys, and very civil too!

Personally, although i like to compare using handicaps I also find myself down the stretch looking at gross scores. I LOVE to beat my mates who are off 9-12 gross, and equally I HATE the guys in the mid teens beating me gross. So I have a sneaky sympathy with the cat 1 guys, but not to the degree that I wouldn't smile as I strolled towards the front on presentation day.

And isn't American Football handicapped? The draft system there gives the poorer teams a leg up that means nobody dominates forever, and I think that is a far better system than we have in the Premiership (not that we could ever replicate that here).

 

[JustOne]

Agree that in event of a tie the lower score should win. Agree that there should be categories of some sort for comps.



as for this...

I was beaten on the 14th last season by an 18 handicapper who was level par at the time! Bandit? I think not - he plays every week and does not 'nurse' his handicap, in my opinion.

when did it EVER read...

I was beaten on the 14th last season by a scratch handicapper who was 14 under par at the time!

I think comps favour the high handicappers because there is MORE of them and therefore it's more likely that they will win, regardless of skill. Also the better you get at this game the more the crappy courses favour the guy who just 'hits one at the hole', not only that but the chances of holing a 40footer for a par and 4pts are a damn site better than holing a full 4-iron approach to a 460yd par 4

 

[birdieman]

Can't golf clubs in a particular area hold one game a month for example for those at 5 or better. No green fees as it would be a reciprecol arrangement. Therefore the only cost would be traveling. Each club could put up a prize or have a nominal entry fee to cover prizes. But I'm sure that the kudos would probably be more important at this level.

It would also give those at a higher h'cap something to aim for.

As long as the player is a full member at one of the clubs, I don't see what the problem is. If nothing else, there's always the revenue from the food an drinks. This should not be considered a society event, but a proper competition.

Whether handicaps should be allowed as a net comp or just go for a gross comp, I don't know. Perhaps it would be better for the players to decide that?

As a thought. The format eg.

7 clubs, 14 competitions. 18 hole medal, (net or gross, see above comment). Due to individuals commitments with hols and family etc, only the best 10 of the 14 to count, so you could play in 10 to qualify or play more to increase your chances of having a blinder of a round. Individual smaller prizes for each meeting, (maybe, maybe not!) and a final prize for the full comp.

Entry limited to 40 players, so that it wouldn't take up more than an hour and a half of tee times. Games to be held in the weekend afternoon when courses are geneally quieter, and so not as to interfere with the regular club comps. No greens fees, as based on a recipricol arrangement. Players should have a valid h'cap verified by playing in 10 comps, within the last 6 months at their local club to qualify. Better than 5 handicap. Perhaps even have an entry fee to cover the cost of someone organising the series and collating the results. Say around £50?

For the better players on here. Is that something that would tickle your fancy, or is it just too much faffing?

If it were me, if I was at that level of handicap, it's certainly something that I'd like to have a go at. At least then I know that I'm not going to be robbed by a high handicapper. I'd also be playing different styles of course and meeting other 'better players'.

What d'ya think?

HH does this not go on to a degree already?
In my SGU Region (North East) there is an order of merit competition open to players with handicaps 9 and below. It goes round many of the 36 hole Opens in the region, each one a qualifier for the OOM. The best gross scores count towards the OOM title but on the day there are the normal scratch and sectional prizes too (0-9).
So if you're a decent player you can play the courses in the region quite cheaply, ususally set up hard, with other scratch and low handicap players. I don't have the time to do this now but I gained great experience and knowledge playing 36 holes with guys as good as +2 when I was a lowly 7 and 8 handicapper 6 or 7 years ago. Gets you punching above your weight a bit when playing with top amateur players.

Does this type of Order of Merit not go on in EGU and other SGU regions?

 

[HawkeyeMS]

when did it EVER read...

I was beaten on the 14th last season by a scratch handicapper who was 14 under par at the time!

Exactly the point I was gonna make, glad someone else picked up on it.

This proves that we have a handicap system that is fundamentally flawed. It allows an 18 handicapper, who isn't a bandit, to stand on the 15th tee 14 shots under his handicap. That's like me standing on the 15th tee at -2 or a scratch golfer staring down the barrel of breaking 60.

...and some people think there is nothing wrong with the current system