bobmac
Major Champion
a very good topic that will always raise its head, and a short term answer maybe more divisions
Or,..... rubbish prizes
Handicaps controversial?
- Thread starter muttleee
- Start date
Or,..... rubbish prizes
Daffy
Hacker
As someone very new to the game, I look on the handicap merely as an aid to gauging how much i'm improving (or not)
I haven't put in for a proper one through my club yet, but using the golf tracker gizmo through todays golfer (apologies if I'm transgressing some mag code
) my handicap is sitting at 25. I won't start looking at competitions until summer, though hopefully by then my handicap will be in the high teens.
Having said that, I perform so badly under pressure that there is no way i'll ever be accused of banditry
I haven't put in for a proper one through my club yet, but using the golf tracker gizmo through todays golfer (apologies if I'm transgressing some mag code
) my handicap is sitting at 25. I won't start looking at competitions until summer, though hopefully by then my handicap will be in the high teens. Having said that, I perform so badly under pressure that there is no way i'll ever be accused of banditry
19th
Head Pro
Can I ask Bob and Freddie to offer a system that would retain membership of a golf club whilst not allowing the vast majority the chance of ever participating in a comp as due to age/ability they will never be scratch or better players - wait now, if there is no handicaps there will be nothing but scratch golfers as all will be the same.
If we use what I understand to be your system of no handicaps I would suspect that the field would consist of circa 10 players so the prize fund would not be high.
The course would however be empty so a 2.5 hour round would be on.
Self service in the bar - can't pay staff out of the profits of ten pints on a Saturday and that's the big day in the club with all the top players present!
Bob your aid and all the millions spent in this way, would die a death as nobody would worry if they were getting any better as they would have no goal to aim for.
If we use what I understand to be your system of no handicaps I would suspect that the field would consist of circa 10 players so the prize fund would not be high.
The course would however be empty so a 2.5 hour round would be on.
Self service in the bar - can't pay staff out of the profits of ten pints on a Saturday and that's the big day in the club with all the top players present!
Bob your aid and all the millions spent in this way, would die a death as nobody would worry if they were getting any better as they would have no goal to aim for.
freddielong
Tour Winner
I dont think the current system works I am not saying we need to get rid off it the current system rewards the more inconsistent golfer.
If anyone achieves there maximum potential and shoots say for the sake of arguments, level par every time they will never win anything, but if a 15 handicap golfer shoots anything beween 95 and 75 every week they will win a few times a year, to me that is not right
If anyone achieves there maximum potential and shoots say for the sake of arguments, level par every time they will never win anything, but if a 15 handicap golfer shoots anything beween 95 and 75 every week they will win a few times a year, to me that is not right
StrangelyBrown
Tour Winner
The thing is, high handicappers are pretty much always going to be inconsistant. My Dad shot 90 a few weekends ago and he's off of 25. This week he shot a 98. You could count on one hand how many times he's shot 90 in the 10 years he's been a member at Prestonfield but if he did this in a competition he'd get called a bandit.
I can't really think of a way to combat the inconsistancy because ninety nine times out of a hundred he'll play to his handicap.
I can't really think of a way to combat the inconsistancy because ninety nine times out of a hundred he'll play to his handicap.
Fyldewhite
Tour Winner
Our club play 4 qualifying rounds to get in a final. The qualifiers are in 3 divisions, the final (board comp) is 20 maximum h/c. Prizes £300/200/150/100. Those not in final play a subsidiary on same day (£150/100/75/50) also max 20. All finals and opens have a best gross prize which is same value as 3rd. Looking at the prize board it is predominently single figures that win the events. We hold only two comps where you can get on the board by having a day out in a single round and have no stableford board comps. Long may that continue.
Nearly all clubs in our area (about 20 within 25 miles) have a low handicap open (often cat 1 only). I'm surprised other areas are different tbh. Some have scratch events too which attract the really low players (Lytham Trophy etc).
Overall I'm a bit puzzled by this thread. Handicapping is what makes golf brilliant in my view. Most try to get better and want to get as good as they can be. Those who don't generally don't win anyway and those that farm their handicaps need to be dealt with.
Nearly all clubs in our area (about 20 within 25 miles) have a low handicap open (often cat 1 only). I'm surprised other areas are different tbh. Some have scratch events too which attract the really low players (Lytham Trophy etc).
Overall I'm a bit puzzled by this thread. Handicapping is what makes golf brilliant in my view. Most try to get better and want to get as good as they can be. Those who don't generally don't win anyway and those that farm their handicaps need to be dealt with.
Ethan
Money List Winner
It is a bit of a pointless discussion. Even those low handicap players who resent playing with duffers would flounder is they played with +handicap players every week.
The handicap system actually tends to favour lower players, who win more often than higher players. That is not to say that a duffer won't have a great round in once in a blue moon with a nett 62 or 63, but the same guy might have a nett 83 the next week. You will never be able to legislate for consistency versus inconsistency, or the fast improving player.
The handicap system actually tends to favour lower players, who win more often than higher players. That is not to say that a duffer won't have a great round in once in a blue moon with a nett 62 or 63, but the same guy might have a nett 83 the next week. You will never be able to legislate for consistency versus inconsistency, or the fast improving player.
bobmac
Major Champion
I'm sorry 19th. I wasn't suggesting no handicaps, I was just saying that in my experience as long as you have good net prizes, then a very small amount of dastardly golfers will protect their handicap for such events.
What did annoy me was all the entrance money from the medal I played in went to the net prizes and therefor no gross prize.
What other sport do you pay to enter, win the competition but win no prize?
As has been said before, different categories for the comps so at least everyone is competing against their own handicap level.
What did annoy me was all the entrance money from the medal I played in went to the net prizes and therefor no gross prize.
What other sport do you pay to enter, win the competition but win no prize?
As has been said before, different categories for the comps so at least everyone is competing against their own handicap level.
Spinn77
Challenge Tour Pro
Why cant club members put every round's score into the computer in the clubhouse - that way all the scores are tracked and players could be cut (or raised) much more regularly under the general play ruling?
I know that there's no CSS calculated when i go and play 18 after work but if i play, for example, to level par then it should be recorded and ultimately be used to review my h/c. With it all be computerised the system could automatically review everyones scores often.
Just a thought, everyone hates the bandit theory and people dont like it being levelled at them. If we put all cards in then this wouldnt exist any more
I know that there's no CSS calculated when i go and play 18 after work but if i play, for example, to level par then it should be recorded and ultimately be used to review my h/c. With it all be computerised the system could automatically review everyones scores often.
Just a thought, everyone hates the bandit theory and people dont like it being levelled at them. If we put all cards in then this wouldnt exist any more
HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
At any level of golf, you will get variations in scoring, how many times do you see pros hit +2 one day and -7 the next, or win a competition one week and miss the cut the next. At lot of pros aren't consistent for various reasons. This is why professional golf events are played over 4 rounds, to ensure that the winner is the best player for that week, not just someone who has a blinder on one day.
The problem is, us amateurs don't have the time to play every competition over 4 rounds so we play it over one or occasionally two, which means that it is more likely that the best player won't necessarily win as there is always someone in the field who has a dream round.
I've heard before that the handicap system favours low handicappers but I just don't buy it. I reckon it is far more likely that a high handicapper will score 40+ points in a stableford than a low single figure player. It is easier to score points off of a high handicap if you have a good day than it is off of a low handicap. Once you get down to 3 or 4 you have to shoot sub par to break 40 points. Off of mid twenties you can easily pick up a couple of pars for 4 points and rack up 40+ points, even with a few blobs chucked in.
I'm not of the view that we should scrap the handicap system for all of the reasons stated on this thread, I just think that shooting level or sub par should be rewarded over shooting 18 over when your off 26.
I've been hovering around low teens, high single figures for years and I practice a lot of golf and not managed to make single figures for any period of time. I really don't want to sound disrespectful but if I practised a lot less and my handicap went up to 20 I would win a lot more events than I do now, and I wouldn't work as hard for it. Thankfully, I'm not playing to win.
So while we need a system and this has been a facinating debate, I think excellence should be rewarded far more often that it is.
The problem is, us amateurs don't have the time to play every competition over 4 rounds so we play it over one or occasionally two, which means that it is more likely that the best player won't necessarily win as there is always someone in the field who has a dream round.
I've heard before that the handicap system favours low handicappers but I just don't buy it. I reckon it is far more likely that a high handicapper will score 40+ points in a stableford than a low single figure player. It is easier to score points off of a high handicap if you have a good day than it is off of a low handicap. Once you get down to 3 or 4 you have to shoot sub par to break 40 points. Off of mid twenties you can easily pick up a couple of pars for 4 points and rack up 40+ points, even with a few blobs chucked in.
I'm not of the view that we should scrap the handicap system for all of the reasons stated on this thread, I just think that shooting level or sub par should be rewarded over shooting 18 over when your off 26.
I've been hovering around low teens, high single figures for years and I practice a lot of golf and not managed to make single figures for any period of time. I really don't want to sound disrespectful but if I practised a lot less and my handicap went up to 20 I would win a lot more events than I do now, and I wouldn't work as hard for it. Thankfully, I'm not playing to win.
So while we need a system and this has been a facinating debate, I think excellence should be rewarded far more often that it is.
JT77
Tour Winner
You would have to play with someone then also, sometimes I like to hit the course for a bit practice on my own, I dont record my score as I like to hit a few balls off the tee if it's quiet and a few at the greens etc..
I think the current system maybe just needs to be re-thought, possibly updated slightly? I play comps to reduce my handicap, I have never won a singles comp, came 2nd a few times, but I enjoy being cut also, makes me feel like I am getting better.
At GC they have 2 divisions, and a gross winner also, the same person usually wins the gross from what I can see, but the others are fairly spread out.
I dont think there will be a change in the handicap system in the near future, but maybe clubs could look at their members to play a few more qualifiers, even 1 a month?
I think the current system maybe just needs to be re-thought, possibly updated slightly? I play comps to reduce my handicap, I have never won a singles comp, came 2nd a few times, but I enjoy being cut also, makes me feel like I am getting better.
At GC they have 2 divisions, and a gross winner also, the same person usually wins the gross from what I can see, but the others are fairly spread out.
I dont think there will be a change in the handicap system in the near future, but maybe clubs could look at their members to play a few more qualifiers, even 1 a month?
RGDave
Money List Winner
Spin....you and I are on the same planet.
If you play a proper game with another member (i.e. cards marked) off a measured course with a SSS, then the card (the score, to be more correct) should be entered, even if just into a cyber-space-place where someone can see it if they want.
I'm really not fussed if my h'cap goes up or down, as long as it MOVES, and reflects how I am playing over a period of time. The fact I can shoot a 75 or 90 and this is not reflected in any adjustment what so ever is what concerns me.
and yes, if I'm playing a game with a 20 h'cap who shoots a 10 over gross, that needs to be taken notice of, even if it's just a "picture" over the year come review time.
we have a member who hasn't played to his h'cap (16) in 3 years. He doesn't get 0.1s because, like me, he works on Saturdays and only ever enters Sunday comps which are 90% non-qualifying.
If you play a proper game with another member (i.e. cards marked) off a measured course with a SSS, then the card (the score, to be more correct) should be entered, even if just into a cyber-space-place where someone can see it if they want.
I'm really not fussed if my h'cap goes up or down, as long as it MOVES, and reflects how I am playing over a period of time. The fact I can shoot a 75 or 90 and this is not reflected in any adjustment what so ever is what concerns me.
and yes, if I'm playing a game with a 20 h'cap who shoots a 10 over gross, that needs to be taken notice of, even if it's just a "picture" over the year come review time.
we have a member who hasn't played to his h'cap (16) in 3 years. He doesn't get 0.1s because, like me, he works on Saturdays and only ever enters Sunday comps which are 90% non-qualifying.
19th
Head Pro
I think Bob where I am taking issue is that you are looking at the exception, in my opinion, who is a golfing cheat and I am already on record stating that in 50 years golfing I only have witnessed one 'baddie' and therefore have difficulty using one experience to condemn a system.
I was beaten on the 14th last season by an 18 handicapper who was level par at the time! Bandit? I think not - he plays every week and does not 'nurse' his handicap, in my opinion.
I do agree that the best gross return should not only get a decent pot but be acclaimed as THE GOLFER.
In all opens I have played in, this has been the format with the section winners being awarded their prizes and the best scores then get theirs in reverse order ie 3rd, 2nd and then 1st. He then not only accepts his prize but does the vote of thanks on behalf of all of us players and is then given a standing ovation from ALL the golfers to go with his voucher.
Now that is reward indeed!
I was beaten on the 14th last season by an 18 handicapper who was level par at the time! Bandit? I think not - he plays every week and does not 'nurse' his handicap, in my opinion.
I do agree that the best gross return should not only get a decent pot but be acclaimed as THE GOLFER.
In all opens I have played in, this has been the format with the section winners being awarded their prizes and the best scores then get theirs in reverse order ie 3rd, 2nd and then 1st. He then not only accepts his prize but does the vote of thanks on behalf of all of us players and is then given a standing ovation from ALL the golfers to go with his voucher.
Now that is reward indeed!
bobmac
Major Champion
I did say there was a very small amount, but as I'm sure Freddie will agree, if it's not one guy winning with a silly score it's another ...and another...and another.
I have been lucky enough to have been Cat I for most of my adult life and have been banging my head against this arguement for most of it. The problem is, it doesn't seem to be getting any better. (Not my head, the arguement lol)
freddielong
Tour Winner
Agreed there is always someone with a net 60 or 46 points it just gets a bit pointless
Losttheplot
Tour Rookie
Just to add to the conversation, I have just finished my 3 cards and have handed them in for my handicap.
I usually shoot mid 80's (par 72) but have played well and have handed in a 79, 81 and 86.
I believe in honesty and am not going to wait to have bad rounds and hand them in. I know I might get a lower handicap than I probably should have but if I'm capable of shooting a 79 and 81 then that's where my handicap should be. No nursing handicaps here.
I usually shoot mid 80's (par 72) but have played well and have handed in a 79, 81 and 86.
I believe in honesty and am not going to wait to have bad rounds and hand them in. I know I might get a lower handicap than I probably should have but if I'm capable of shooting a 79 and 81 then that's where my handicap should be. No nursing handicaps here.
Parmo
Tour Winner
So by judging this thread, Cat1 players whine and moan like old house wives?
Spinn77
Challenge Tour Pro
I'm Cat 2 and didn't enjoyed losing a winter pairs game to high handicappers. I shot 3 over par and we lost on the 17th. Was very unhappy - the fella plays the minimum number of competitions a year!
Us Cat 2's can moan as well i would have thought
Us Cat 2's can moan as well i would have thought
iGolf
Club Champion
I think if h/c’s were based on potential it would remove a lot of the problems.
Use the current system as a basis, but if say a 20 handicapper shoots an 82 in a comp they are immediately reduced to a 10h/c as they have shown the ability to score that low.
It can then slowly move back towards 20 again based on the current system
Use the current system as a basis, but if say a 20 handicapper shoots an 82 in a comp they are immediately reduced to a 10h/c as they have shown the ability to score that low.
It can then slowly move back towards 20 again based on the current system
There will never be an ideal solution but at the moment the handicapping system in theory gives me a chance to play the low guys or a pro like Bob and give them an even game (this synopsis doesn't apply to HTL who is a total bandit). It should therefore allow everyone to play off a level playing field in a club stablefird or medal and this is where it falls down. As the events are one round there will always be someone who is having a career day. Its no different truth be told to a pro shooting a 63 excpet they then have to carry that over for another three days.
I think there needs to be more done to address the issue of inactive handicaps (I'm still for 10 in a 6 month period - maybe dropped to 5 or 6 in lieu of the winter we've just had) and they need to be done on a shorte rolling period. It isn't fair to get a guy putting 3 cards in per year for his active handicap, turning up at a honours board event and shooting the lights out and then disappering again.
As I say not ideal. I'm against putting every card in as like others on here there are times I just want my own company, or want to go out when its quiet and hit a couple of balls and play around with different shots.
I think there needs to be more done to address the issue of inactive handicaps (I'm still for 10 in a 6 month period - maybe dropped to 5 or 6 in lieu of the winter we've just had) and they need to be done on a shorte rolling period. It isn't fair to get a guy putting 3 cards in per year for his active handicap, turning up at a honours board event and shooting the lights out and then disappering again.
As I say not ideal. I'm against putting every card in as like others on here there are times I just want my own company, or want to go out when its quiet and hit a couple of balls and play around with different shots.
