Handicaps controversial?

[Tiger]

The sample sizes in the CONGU tables are too smal to be reliable.

Again apologies for not checking the stats before posting. I'd assumed given they were CONGU stats the sample would be statistically significant. If that's not the case I'm 100% with Ethan on this one.

I do however think that it may be possible to set the course up to combat this a little, but due to the natural fluctuations of relative category players changing prize distribution is the only solution, but it would need to reward a player in each categories to work

PS hats off to Muttllee for starting arguably the most intriguing and well debated thread I've seen since joining
the Forum

 

[HawkeyeMS]

PS hats off to Muttllee for starting arguably the most intriguing and well debated thread I've seen since joining
the Forum

On top of that, I'm a newbie to this forum but I can honestly say that this is probably the 1st thread I have ever read and contributed to on any forum that hasn't collapsed into a slagging match. I lose interest in forums when you can't have a point of view without getting abuse for not agreeing with someone else. Long may it continue I say

Cue abusive response....

 

[viscount17]

Ethan has given probability ranges across gross scores but you could break these down even further by assessing probability on a hole by hole basis.
simplisticly, on a par 4, the range of probable scores for Cat 1 should be 2 - 6, with the median say 3.7, for a Cat 4 this range would be 2 - 8, with a median say 5.5. The mathematicians amongst us could derive endless amusement factoring in SSI, SI, weather and a host of other variables, but as a rough guide, these will do.
quite simply, on any given day, under any circumstances, the Cat 1 should return the better score on every hole.
probability however says that on any given hole the Cat 4 could return the better score.

However Sod's law says a Cat 4 will.

It's as immutable as the tide, trying to stop it coming in only gets you wet feet.

 

[kid2]

Here's my tuppence worth....
I think the solution is an easy one.....
As earlier posts have said categorise everybody.
0-6 Cat1
7-12 Cat2
13-18 Cat3
19-24 Cat4
No matter whether the comp is singles matchplay stableford whatever until you show progression in you relavent category you stay in it.....
Also prioritise prizes in order of each category.....
Big prizes for lower categories and spread out to smaller ones for the higher categories.
It makes the whole game interesting for everybody then....
High handicappers wont get intimidated buy low handicappers and they wont be called bandits and low handicappers wont get annoyed at being beaten by a high handicapper on a countback...

This would also weed out the so called "bandits" from just turning up and winning all round.....

And i also agree with some of the other posts that say the best golfer should win....Its common sense......And thats coming from a man off 19......
If your good enough to maintain a low handicap then you should be duelly rewarded for it....Likewise if your improving as a high handicapper you go up a category......

Its all about divisions.....

 

[Leftie]

I posed this question 24 hours and goodness knows how many posts ago, and as far as I can see no-one has yet responded.


Just a thought - if your club ran a scratch medal alongside a h/cap medal, or other comp, how many of you lower h/cappers would opt to play in the scratch?

Come on you low h/cappers. Own up. You would want your shots, wouldn't you ??

 

[JustOne]

Again apologies for not checking the stats before posting. I'd assumed given they were CONGU stats the sample would be statistically significant.

There's a chart on there representing 250,000 rounds, I'd say that WAS significant.

I posed this question 24 hours and goodness knows how many posts ago, and as far as I can see no-one has yet responded.


Just a thought - if your club ran a scratch medal alongside a h/cap medal, or other comp, how many of you lower h/cappers would opt to play in the scratch?

Come on you low h/cappers. Own up. You would want your shots, wouldn't you ??

I'd play in the scratch purely because I know that it's not easy to shoot your h/cap every single time you tee your ball up when you are a low h/capper.

I disagree with a point above that says the prizes should be greater for the lower h/cap players - they should be equal for all categories. If someone has won their own category then (in my eyes) they have done equally well according to their h/cap.

 

[backwoodsman]

They are trying to debunk the myths whilst actually providing evidence to show that the myths are actually TRUE!

Only a 10% chance of a Cat1 golfer winning because all the other times it's clearly a higher h/capper having a monster 44+pts round!!

With 19% you are TWICE as likely to win is you are Cat4 than if you are Cat1

Sorry J1UK, but that's just misinterpreting the data - especially as you only use half of it. Ok, Cat 1 players only win 10% of the comps - but they only account for 8% of entries. On other hand, Cat 3 players win 38% of the time but represent 40% of entries - an <u>individual</u> cat1 player is <u>more</u> likely to win than an <u>individual</u> cat3 player. (Yes it's more likely that a person from cat3 will win because there's more of them, but Specific Person A from cat 1 is more likely to win than Specific Me in cat 3. Think about it this way - how many women win your medal? None? Main reason - because so few (ie none) enter.

As to Lefty's question - if there was a scratch comp, would the high players enter. Yes we do & yes I will. But it is banded. The "cup" - which is the prestigious prize of the year - is for 10 & under whereas the slightly less prestigious "trophy" is for 11 and over. On 20 I've little chance of winning, but I might have a good day and the 11-12-13s might not.)

I think what we have to remember is we're playing club golf - a bunch of like minded folk wanting to play socially together. There would be no point to it if there were not a system of levelling things. Bandits aside, I'd be surprised if anyone can come up with better than the current system. (But we'll argue till the cows come home on the precise method of calculating things)

 

[jammydodger]

I posed this question 24 hours and goodness knows how many posts ago, and as far as I can see no-one has yet responded.


Just a thought - if your club ran a scratch medal alongside a h/cap medal, or other comp, how many of you lower h/cappers would opt to play in the scratch?

Come on you low h/cappers. Own up. You would want your shots, wouldn't you ??

I'm pretty sure most clubs run a gross prize alongside the nett in medals now dont they ? It's then your choice whether you pay the extra entry fee to enter to take part or not. I always entered the gross and nett in all comps that were available to me , no big deal really

 

[Marko77]

Just a thought - if your club ran a scratch medal alongside a h/cap medal, or other comp, how many of you lower h/cappers would opt to play in the scratch?

Come on you low h/cappers. Own up. You would want your shots, wouldn't you ??

I'm not low, low but am working on reducing the hcap. I only really measure my scores scratch. I have accepted that it will be a rarity that I will come out on top in a one round nett comp but at the end of the day it's my scratch score that counts. If I play well scratch the nett will come and the hcap will continue dropping.

Why on earth would someone want to choose what medal they enter, it should be in place that there is a scratch winner and a nett winner. That isn't in place at my club, it is all nett but that is something I would like to see introduced.

Out of interest I looked over How Did I Do at winners from my club last year and of the main comps I checked most of the overall winners came from Div 1 (0-10 handicaps) I don't have the inclination to do CONGU style graphs, yet I'll wait for a rainy day and maybe do it.

 

[muttleee]

I agree with your interpretation...but judging by the smilies and exclamation marks, I think JOUK was joking. I'm not sure though!

 

[Dodger]

I would play in scratch every time.

 

[Screwback]

I would play in scratch every time.

Well after todays performace i would think so

 

[Dodger]

On fire son.on fire,the two thumber has got me holing putts....no doubt I have shot my bolt before the season starts!

 

[Robobum]

I posed this question 24 hours and goodness knows how many posts ago, and as far as I can see no-one has yet responded.


Just a thought - if your club ran a scratch medal alongside a h/cap medal, or other comp, how many of you lower h/cappers would opt to play in the scratch?

Come on you low h/cappers. Own up. You would want your shots, wouldn't you ??

We do this during every medal, the lowest gross picks up a prize (money in the pro shop).

There is slim chance of ever winning a medal outright so you aim to win the gross prize and get a little h'cap cut, anything else is a Billy Bonus.

 

[AuburnWarrior]

PS hats off to Muttllee for starting arguably the most intriguing and well debated thread I've seen since joining
the Forum

On top of that, I'm a newbie to this forum but I can honestly say that this is probably the 1st thread I have ever read and contributed to on any forum that hasn't collapsed into a slagging match. I lose interest in forums when you can't have a point of view without getting abuse for not agreeing with someone else. Long may it continue I say

Cue abusive response....

Carlsberg don't do internet forums, but if they did...

 

[JustOne]

Sorry J1UK, but that's just misinterpreting the data -

Yeh, I think I'm just clutching at straws so that it falls in my favour more often than it currently does...

In theory if there were 100 entrants then everyone should have a 1% chance of winning regardless of h/cap. Those figures appear to back that up.

My opinion is probably somewhat warped as I play with a group of guys of which 20 of 30 have inflated h/caps.... and it ain't pretty.

 

[backwoodsman]

In theory if there were 100 entrants then everyone should have a 1% chance of winning regardless of h/cap. Those figures appear to back that up.

That indeed is the theory so we all - as individuals - have a chance. But yes, chances are it will be a cat3 player who wins simply because there's more of us.. we're everywhere...

Of course the theory doesn't always hold up, as according to numbers, I should have had a couple of wins by now. And how many have I actually had?

 

[CannyFifer]

interesting, never thought the low handicappers felt like that. I've just put in my 3 cards of 99,98 and 94 to get a handicap. the lowest card was when I was playing with 2 single figure players which always brings the best out of me. Hit an 89 a few months back in a knock about against the same guys.i think high players always play better when up against the low guys as I have hit over a 100 when playing with my unhandicapped mates.
EDIT - it's probably how the wee teams often play well against the big teams in the cup

 

[JustOne]

Being a low h/capper means there is simply no margin for error. That said we normally have the confidence to know that we can actually play quite well and should be making a few birdies. It's hard to take though when you lip out 4 or 5 putts and then get a bad bounce into a tree root or hit the cart path 270yds away and watch as it bounces 80yds out of bounds