Handicap manipulation - how to address

[Colin L]

Can someone wake Slumbers up please.......in OZ we play all year round because we have the weather for it.....so 50 cards a year is nothing, I average 150 cards a year and I'm not an oddity, and I have never met anyone who has put in a GP card in OZ.

Martin Slumbers was talking about an average of 3 cards a year within the CONGU system.

 

[clubchamp98]

Average cards was 3 a year? Seriously? I have never submitted less than 30 cards in a year going back to about 2000.

Was Slumbers just looking at the likes of Muirfield?

Plus three of the “most trusted affiliates “could not be bothered to turn up.

They must be the low handicap ones

 

[clubchamp98]

That would not get you a mention out here.

Or here in summer.

 

[Thintowin]

Can someone wake Slumbers up please.......in OZ we play all year round because we have the weather for it.....so 50 cards a year is nothing, I average 150 cards a year and I'm not an oddity, and I have never met anyone who has put in a GP card in OZ.

Read the rest of the article if you get a chance. Says he'd previously retired once from a finance role and then was persuaded to take up the R&A 'finance' role. Says it all, accountant run nonsense.

 

[upsidedown]

Given they have been using this system in other countries for a long time why Havnt they addressed this before and come up with an answer to the manipulation problem ?

They have had the time to think of a solution
Or is it only in GB &I there’s a problem.?

My memory from playing under it in 2007 to 2013 in NZ was no there was no manipulation. The old boys indexs would go up in the Winter and then they'd hoover up a few comps begining of the season but with in a month comps were being won by all indexes.
We were encouraged to put cards in every time we.played but indexs only changed every 2 weeks and were best 10 of last 20.

 

[rulefan]

Average cards was 3 a year? Seriously? I have never submitted less than 30 cards in a year going back to about 2000.

Anecdote.
When i was h'cap chair in UHS days we had two very large fiddle groups. One played twice a week the other three times a week. They both played their own internal h'cap system based on prize winnings or losses per month. Out of about 60 players nearly all played at least once a week, many 2 or 3 times. Only about 5 played in comps using their UHS h'cap.

We have about 500 male members. Our Saturday medals/stablefords have entries of about 120-150 (majors 180). The number of entrants has been consistent for at least 12 years (ie through UHS and WHS)

 

[PaulMdj]

Can someone wake Slumbers up please.......in OZ we play all year round because we have the weather for it.....so 50 cards a year is nothing, I average 150 cards a year and I'm not an oddity, and I have never met anyone who has put in a GP card in OZ.

You play 150 comps a year?

 

[AussieKB]

You play 150 comps a year?

Have done for about the last 20 years......in OZ I play every Wednesday & Thursday in a stableford competition at two clubs I am a member, then every Saturday is a competition day at both clubs, plus I play in Opens and I am also a member of the Veterans Association, and they have over 20 competitions, mostly on a Monday.

 

[PaulMdj]

Have done for about the last 20 years......in OZ I play every Wednesday & Thursday in a stableford competition at two clubs I am a member, then every Saturday is a competition day at both clubs, plus I play in Opens and I am also a member of the Veterans Association, and they have over 20 competitions, mostly on a Monday.

So you’d have no need for GP cards, GP cards, for me, are aimed at those people who can’t or don’t have access to regular Comps.

 

[AussieKB]

So you’d have no need for GP cards, GP cards, for me, are aimed at those people who can’t or don’t have access to regular Comps.

Agree.....no need for GP cards out here, as we have the weather to play all year round and clubs have at least 1 mid week competition plus Saturday, and plenty of Opens all year.

 

[Colin L]

Agree.....no need for GP cards out here, as we have the weather to play all year round and clubs have at least 1 mid week competition plus Saturday, and plenty of Opens all year.

Sounds great, but your outside influences seem to be a bit larger and more intrusive than our rabbits.

 

[AussieKB]

Sounds great, but your outside influences seem to be a bit larger and more intrusive than our rabbits.

View attachment 56424

Have these on my courses plus Emu's Snakes several species of Bobtail lizard's.

 

[Dunesman]

Be honest, you just plucked some numbers out of thin air without any substantial data to back them up.

Not entirely. They are estimates that I think gives a truer picture of the non level playing field we have that the misapprehension that some maybe still have, that WHS is fair and gives equal chance to all handicaps.

But true, we dont know the exact figures. That in iteslf is a problem.
It would be interesting if England golf or the R&A published the true figures, and imbalance that they have built into their implementation of WHS. As above, I think they are somewhat disingenuous in leaving many golfers under the illusion that the handicapping system is fair.

 

[Dunesman]

Average cards was 3 a year? Seriously? I have never submitted less than 30 cards in a year going back to about 2000.

Was Slumbers just looking at the likes of Muirfield?

I must assume he meant all golfers. The issue here is with competition golf, and its fairness. How many cards did golfers regularly playing in competitions submit in a year, is the more pertinent question. By definition, far more. Slumbers is comparing apples and oranges here.

 

[Voyager EMH]

The debate whether higher handicappers are too advantaged will continue I'm sure.

What I am fairly certain of is that the wildly inconsistent golfer is advantaged. And this could be at any level of handicap.

I was given 4.1 at start of WHS. I've been as low as 2.5 and as high as 5.5.
I'm currently 4.6 but when competition golf resumes I have 8 goes where the only way is down. My 8 best scores are in my most recent 12.

I am fairly consistent, even with the above described variation. Others who I have known for a long time have broader variations.
When your handicap is at a peak, you have more chance of winning - seems obvious to me.
So the more inconsistent you are, the more chance you have of the occasional win.
It took so much longer for handicaps to increase under the old system, that this effect was not so noticeable.

"Handicap reflecting current form" does not seem to apply to me at all. Good scores and bad scores occur in any way and at any time - that's me.

I just need to work on being more wildly inconsistent.

 

[wjemather]

Not entirely. They are estimates that I think gives a truer picture of the non level playing field we have that the misapprehension that some maybe still have, that WHS is fair and gives equal chance to all handicaps.

But true, we dont know the exact figures. That in iteslf is a problem.
It would be interesting if England golf or the R&A published the true figures, and imbalance that they have built into their implementation of WHS. As above, I think they are somewhat disingenuous in leaving many golfers under the illusion that the handicapping system is fair.

So you did just make it up, entirely - based on your feeling, a few anecdotes, and (almost) no data.

The equity and limitations of the system are not unknown or being hidden. One is written in the rules and the other is unavoidable with all handicap systems. If you don't like feeling you have no chance in large fields because of the increased probably of (virtually) unattainable scores, take it up with your club - it's their intransigence/ignorance/incompetence that is causing the problem. And the fair solution isn't to give the lower handicappers an unfair advantage/unfairly disadvantage the higher handicappers, as your club is seeking to do - contrary to the rules and guidance they agreed to adhere to through affiliation.

 

[AussieKB]

A lot of the comments remind me of Democrats saying Joe Biden is sharp as a tack........
until the penny dropped.

 

[Colin L]

Not entirely. They are estimates that I think gives a truer picture of the non level playing field we have that the misapprehension that some maybe still have, that WHS is fair and gives equal chance to all handicaps.

But true, we dont know the exact figures. That in iteslf is a problem.
It would be interesting if England golf or the R&A published the true figures, and imbalance that they have built into their implementation of WHS. As above, I think they are somewhat disingenuous in leaving many golfers under the illusion that the handicapping system is fair.

Are you suggesting that an imbalance has been deliberately built in?

Are you aware of the reason for and the effect of the stroke play handicap allowance of 95%?

 

[rulefan]

A lot of the comments remind me of Democrats saying Joe Biden is sharp as a tack........
until the penny dropped.

As an Australian presumably playing your golf in Australia, what are the specific deficiencies with WHS, in relation to the previous Australian system, that you personally are experiencing?

 

[AussieKB]

As an Australian presumably playing your golf in Australia, what are the specific deficiencies with WHS, in relation to the previous Australian system, that you personally are experiencing?

Where do I start.....I think the main problem is, it's a system designed for USA.

OZ has made plenty of changes but it still does not work if you play outside of Urban areas.

The two courses I am a member at, the easy rated course is at least 1-2 shots harder then the other.

A good example is I play off a 4 handicap at most courses, last year I played a country course that my daily/course handicap was scratch, if I became a member there over time my handicap would revert back to 4 or 5 (it is not any easy course)
and there are plenty of country course this scenario works.

The reason I would be off scratch is that the slope and course rating is done by the US system.

Can you imagine me turning up to play at my old courses and my handicap went out to 8 or 9, the abuse I would get.

I think the US system works OK in the cities of OZ but no way does the system work for regional OZ, and I have seen it a plenty.

The old system I thought worked, it upsets a lot of people when the winner on the day goes out a whole shot, I have seen this happen on numerous occasions, and the person who comes 2nd 3rd or lower losers a shot.

You can stand there and try to explain how the system works, but no one buys into it.

Had an email from a UK GM (top 50 course) who said no one likes it.

I know its all down to personal opinion, but I have yet to meet anyone on single figures say they are not getting screwed.

So bottom line is do not improve and you have more chance of winning.