Handicap manipulation - how to address

[PaulMdj]

But it hasn’t got parity.
It’s completely gone the other way.
I did accept low men had an advantage in UHS but why replace a system with another one that discriminates against them in a brand new system?

It really hasn’t, for example, we had an Ind Stab today, just over 100 entries, winner on countback had 38pts, guy in 3rd position on countback had 37pts. Sadly for the guys in 2nd & 3rd we have divisions, and they were both won with 37pts.

Handicaps of 1st-3rd are 1, 2 & 3, Lad off +3 was 6th.

Last months (Nov 30th) was won by a guy off 6 with 40pts.

Low guys are still competing and having their fair share of wins

 

[KenL]

It really hasn’t, for example, we had an Ind Stab today, just over 100 entries, winner on countback had 38pts, guy in 3rd position on countback had 37pts. Sadly for the guys in 2nd & 3rd we have divisions, and they were both won with 37pts.

Handicaps of 1st-3rd are 1, 2 & 3, Lad off +3 was 6th.

Last months (Nov 30th) was won by a guy off 6 with 40pts.

Low guys are still competing and having their fair share of wins

Interesting.
How was the weather?

 

[clubchamp98]

It really hasn’t, for example, we had an Ind Stab today, just over 100 entries, winner on countback had 38pts, guy in 3rd position on countback had 37pts. Sadly for the guys in 2nd & 3rd we have divisions, and they were both won with 37pts.

Handicaps of 1st-3rd are 1, 2 & 3, Lad off +3 was 6th.

Last months (Nov 30th) was won by a guy off 6 with 40pts.

Low guys are still competing and having their fair share of wins

I’m not disputing other clubs are not seeing it.
But at mine the low men have won diddly squat.

Off the back tees in this weather and ground conditions the better ball strikers will do better imo.
But those scores are attainable to low guys, in summer those scores would not win.

It’s why I said “ everyone sees it through their own lens”

 

[PaulMdj]

Interesting.
How was the weather?

Lovely, light winds, 12 degrees.

 

[clubchamp98]

Lovely, light winds, 12 degrees.

Sounds like the summer we had.

 

[PaulMdj]

I’m not disputing other clubs are not seeing it.
But at mine the low men have won diddly squat.

Off the back tees in this weather and ground conditions the better ball strikers will do better imo.
But those scores are attainable to low guys, in summer those scores would not win.

It’s why I said “ everyone sees it through their own lens”

In the post I replied to you said “
But it hasn’t got parity.
It’s completely gone the other way.
I did accept low men had an advantage in UHS but why replace a system with another one that discriminates against them in a brand new system?”

And now above you’re making excuses and giving reasons when low men do compete!

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

Low guys are still competing and having their fair share of wins

4BBB Stableford off our 6500 yard tees last weekend was won by a pair off 1 and 8. With 42 points.

 

[PaulMdj]

4BBB Stableford off our 6500 yard tees last weekend was won by a pair off 1 and 8. With 42 points.

I blame the weather

 

[KenL]

4BBB Stableford off our 6500 yard tees last weekend was won by a pair off 1 and 8. With 42 points.

Not a high score for 4BBB.

 

[Dunesman]

Low guys are still competing and having their fair share of wins

This is not the case. Examples of wins for low men can be cited, but they are NOT having their FAIR share of wins. Taking larger sample sizes, they are having fewer proportional wins to high handicappers.
They had an advantage before WHS, that is true. But rather than level chances, it swung against them. This is not in dispute, and was a known, deliberately built in factor of WHS. But, this was not acknowledged or published in the selling and implementation of WHS. But was discovered through experience in the first years of living with WHS. No wonder people are unhappy. Not only with a bias against them, in a supposed improved system, but at the perceived deceit.

 

[KenL]

I don’t think low cappers had an advantage in handicap comps before WHS.

 

[Dunesman]

I assume that's what you meant?
After all, the winner of a handicap comp is the player who has the most inaccurate 'cap on the day ...

That is not the case at all, and a severe misunderstanding of the handicap system. With a good handicap syatem, everyone will have played of the correct handicap, and the winner will just have played best relative to that.
At present, high handicappers ate playing off an inflated hc compared to lower players.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

So what is a low hcpper and what is a high hcpper?

 

[clubchamp98]

In the post I replied to you said “
But it hasn’t got parity.
It’s completely gone the other way.
I did accept low men had an advantage in UHS but why replace a system with another one that discriminates against them in a brand new system?”

And now above you’re making excuses and giving reasons when low men do compete!

In winter they can compete mainly because of length.

But in summer the scores you posted wouldn’t win not at mine anyway.

The ground conditions in winter does hamper the shorter hitter in winter.
But are low cappers going to be happy just competing in crap conditions in winter.?

Golf’s a summer game that’s when the majors are on at my club anyway.

 

[Dunesman]

I don’t think low cappers had an advantage in handicap comps before WHS.

They did, slightly. This was deliberate by Congu, known as the 'bonus for excellence', wherby better golfers won slighlt more than their due. WHS reversed this philosophy, and chose to have lower handicappers less likely to win.

 

[Dunesman]

So what is a low hcpper and what is a high hcpper?

Below 10, golfers have a decreasing reduction in their win chances the better they get. Above 15, they have an increasing chance of winning. The balance point seems about 14, although I am sure the maths behing WHS can define this with precision but I have not seen one published.

 

[clubchamp98]

Not a high score for 4BBB.

It’s a good score considering the ground conditions and cold weather.

 

[PaulMdj]

This is not the case. Examples of wins for low men can be cited, but they are NOT having their FAIR share of wins. Taking larger sample sizes, they are having fewer proportional wins to high handicappers.
They had an advantage before WHS, that is true. But rather than level chances, it swung against them. This is not in dispute, and was a known, deliberately built in factor of WHS. But, this was not acknowledged or published in the selling and implementation of WHS. But was discovered through experience in the first years of living with WHS. No wonder people are unhappy. Not only with a bias against them, in a supposed improved system, but at the perceived deceipt.

Surely we have to wait until the WHS has settled, we still have a lot of members who don’t understand it and are constantly being educated.

We were lucky that prior to WHS we had divisions for individual comps, the only complaints I have seen/heard prior to WHS was the amount of low handicaps tgat would win 4BBB or Texas Scrambles, that has now swung the other way.

WHS did initiall cause some issues with guts in the 10-20 range getting shots back and Low Cappers being cut.

Imo, this has now settled down and we have very few complaints about the new system, is it broken? No imo. Could it be improved? Absolutely, but not in huge ways.

 

[KenL]

So what is a low hcpper and what is a high hcpper?

Under 5 is a low capper. Over 15 is high???

 

[clubchamp98]

Under 5 is a low capper. Over 15 is high???

27 is in the middle so make of that what you want.