Handicap manipulation - how to address

[Thintowin]

We can all search the web but that is not what is being asked of you by many different posters.

What do you think are the specific problems with WHS?

A search for problems with the previous system threw up very few, probably no, articles. The very fact that these articles are plentiful demonstrates a massive problem with WHS and the complaints have been consistent for a number of years now. They will keep coming too, I've no doubt.

I want a system that has the backing of the vast majority of club golfers. WHS is not that whereas the previous system had that backing.

No fun competing when a large section of the competitors have little or no confidence in the system and that's where we're at I'm afraid.

 

[Colin L]

The lines of conversation and points of view of those who are dominant in this forum are simply not reflective of the chat within the clubhouse. Maybe you enjoy your echo chamber but that's what it is. WHS will be a dead duck and is already ignored in some golfing circles. People find a way of competing and they'll find a way again. It won't be long before some clubs drop their affiliations. All it's doing is breaking up the game. It's created hostility and attitudes between players of different handicaps are worse because of it. The game is in turmoil.

Completely unnecessary.

Well, I guess your contributions may be reflective of the chat in your own clubhouse - in the carper's corner, that is. But this 'echo chamber' is inhabited by a considerable body of golfers with knowledge and experience of golf at club, regional, national and international levels and with it, the considerable depth of practical knowledge of the rules of golf and of handicapping which the so-called "dominant" have to offer. But listening and learning isn't as much fun as winding folk up, is it?

Enough's enough. I'm off to do something useful.

 

[clubchamp98]

We can all search the web but that is not what is being asked of you by many different posters.

What do you think are the specific problems with WHS?

I do think WHS favours high handicappers.
It’s admitted by many on here that it more or less stops low cappers winning but not placing in the top ten.

If you’re going to start a new system you can’t disadvantage a section of the players.
Although I admit no system could do that or can it ?
Yes we have heard the low men had an advantage under the old system but that’s not an excuse to disadvantage them under a new one.

For me divisions more or less admits it’s not a level playing field as in a comp there is only one winner.
But divisions have been in for a very long time. Does that prove it’s never been a level playing field.?

Golfers will look at WHS through their own lens ( handicap ) some love it some don’t.
But stats won’t change their opinion that’s formed at their club level.

It is what it is and not going to change any time soon.
But sections at my club won’t play in comps now as the winning scores have become unattainable.

As for opens the scores now are just laughable to compete and it’s just a day out now.
That’s why clubs are putting restrictions on entry criteria .


Not WHS but GP cards are a real problem imo as someone off 26 can win a comp but be back off 26 in no time using GP cards .

This is just my honest opinion as a member of a club for over 40+ years.

 

[D-S]

A search for problems with the previous system threw up very few, probably no, articles. The very fact that these articles are plentiful demonstrates a massive problem with WHS and the complaints have been consistent for a number of years now. They will keep coming too, I've no doubt.

I want a system that has the backing of the vast majority of club golfers. WHS is not that whereas the previous system had that backing.

No fun competing when a large section of the competitors have little or no confidence in the system and that's where we're at I'm afraid.

When I and others asked for your specific problems with WHS rather than generalised anecdotal criticism we were looking for the particular points that you dislike and maybe even your solutions or alternatives.
Here are some synonyms for specific which might clarify our question. Specific -
detail , fact , point , particular , item , precise , detailed , explicit , express , clear , clear-cut, unambiguous, unequivocal.

 

[clubchamp98]

A search for problems with the previous system threw up very few, probably no, articles. The very fact that these articles are plentiful demonstrates a massive problem with WHS and the complaints have been consistent for a number of years now. They will keep coming too, I've no doubt.

I want a system that has the backing of the vast majority of club golfers. WHS is not that whereas the previous system had that backing.

No fun competing when a large section of the competitors have little or no confidence in the system and that's where we're at I'm afraid.

I do think your fundamental argument is correct.

But imo the vast majority of golfers just don’t care .
Most don’t play comp golf.

 

[D-S]

I do think WHS favours high handicappers.
It’s admitted by many on here that it more or less stops low cappers winning but not placing in the top ten.

If you’re going to start a new system you can’t disadvantage a section of the players.
Although I admit no system could do that or can it ?
Yes we have heard the low men had an advantage under the old system but that’s not an excuse to disadvantage them under a new one.

For me divisions more or less admits it’s not a level playing field as in a comp there is only one winner.
But divisions have been in for a very long time. Does that prove it’s never been a level playing field.?

Golfers will look at WHS through their own lens ( handicap ) some love it some don’t.
But stats won’t change their opinion that’s formed at their club level.

It is what it is and not going to change any time soon.
But sections at my club won’t play in comps now as the winning scores have become unattainable.

As for opens the scores now are just laughable to compete and it’s just a day out now.


Not WHS but GP cards are a real problem imo as someone off 26 can win a comp but be back off 26 in no time using GP cards .

This is just my honest opinion as a member of a club for over 40+ years.

We did have divisions in UHS though.

I agree with the points made on GP cards on here and they are certainly a source of manipulation which is either difficult /impossible or extremely time consuming to police.

I would be interested to know if participation in competitions has decreased since WHS, this is certainly not the case at my club or at many other clubs whose Handicap and Competition Committees that I have had dealings with and have spoken to.

Open comps around here were very often a joke prior to WHS as well - this doesn’t excuse WHS but at least the 4BB is a concrete step in the right direction.

My longtime worry is that we become closer to the US in terms if handicaps where they are virtually meaningless outside specific groups or clubs.

 

[AussieKB]

I had a reply from a GM of a top 50 UK club who said that WHS is not popular,
but most GM's say nothing to be safe.

When I played there earlier this year I noted that the feeling for WHS or should
I say the English HS was that it was not an improvement on the last system.

 

[Thintowin]

I had a reply from a GM of a top 50 UK club who said that WHS is not popular,
but most GM's say nothing to be safe.

When I played there earlier this year I noted that the feeling for WHS or should
I say the English HS was that it was not an improvement on the last system.

It's time for everyone to say what they really think. This 'emperor's new clothes' parade has been allowed to continue for too long.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

It's time for everyone to say what they really think. This 'emperor's new clothes' parade has been allowed to continue for too long.

How about this.....you join a golf forum with the sole aim of argueing over one thing, nothing more.
Instead of agitating on here, take your beef to the R&A.
In case you didn't know, nothing in life is perfect...nothing.

WHS isn't perfect, but neither was the Congu system. I know of plenty of players who have 3 putted when they need to to make sure they got what they wanted from the handicap system, long before WHS was in consideration.

 

[KenL]

The lines of conversation and points of view of those who are dominant in this forum are simply not reflective of the chat within the clubhouse. Maybe you enjoy your echo chamber but that's what it is. WHS will be a dead duck and is already ignored in some golfing circles. People find a way of competing and they'll find a way again. It won't be long before some clubs drop their affiliations. All it's doing is breaking up the game. It's created hostility and attitudes between players of different handicaps are worse because of it. The game is in turmoil.

Completely unnecessary.

The bit about clubs dropping their affiliation is nonsense. The game is not “in turmoil” that I see.
Is this just a problem at your club? I no of no issues at my place.

 

[pendodave]

It's time for everyone to say what they really think. This 'emperor's new clothes' parade has been allowed to continue for too long.

Instead of obsessing about what will always be a flawed system, you could, I dunno, play better?
I assume that's what you meant?
After all, the winner of a handicap comp is the player who has the most inaccurate 'cap on the day ...

 

[Voyager EMH]

The biggest moan or chattering at my club is the "losing a shot" misconception. I hear it over and over again.
Many score their stableford points with 100% CH week in week out in social games and roll-ups, then feel hard done by in comps (95%) and like to point out that lower handicap players are not "losing a shot".
This would never have occurred, if we had adopted an Auzzie type handicap calculation with no such thing as Course Handicap.

And then the lower handicap players have a moan when an awayday or AmAm is organised by the club ignoring 95% or 85% and use 100% for everyone, because, "it is a fun day."

None of the above is a fault of WHS. Merely a lack of understanding of how and why it should be applied and a strange desire to not accept it.

 

[LincolnShep]

Those of you who are talking of scoring better away seem to have missed Rulie's question - are you comparing gross scores or net differentials? It should be the latter to make a meaningful comparison.

I use Score Differential. It's the only transferrable measure, so it's the only one I use.

Since I joined my current club in Oct23, my average SD is 28.6. Over the same period, my average SD everywhere except my home club is 20.9. The slope at my home club is 106 (CR is 2.7 below par from the whites and 3.6 below par from the yellows. My index is 16.7 so I'm getting a PH of only 11 or 12. I just can't score with so few shots, I'm not good enough. My course is short but that doesn't make it easy for me. It means I might be hitting a wedge for my second shot, instead of a seven iron, but that doesn't make much difference to my GIR number. The bunkers and greens are both rubbish so they both cost me occasional shots too.

There are lots of reasons why, but it was over simplistic (of KenL) to claim that anyone scoring better away from home is a cheat.

 

[LincolnShep]

It's time for everyone to say what they really think. This 'emperor's new clothes' parade has been allowed to continue for too long.

Thanks but most people on this forum are already saying what they think; you seem to only hear the opinions that agree with your own.

 

[rulefan]

I do think WHS favours high handicappers.

Probably because the old system favoured low handicappers. Everyone played against a Standard Scratch Score (SSS) that was determined for scratch players.
Slope was introduced specifically to try and get parity.

 

[KenL]

I use Score Differential. It's the only transferrable measure, so it's the only one I use.

Since I joined my current club in Oct23, my average SD is 28.6. Over the same period, my average SD everywhere except my home club is 20.9. The slope at my home club is 106 (CR is 2.7 below par from the whites and 3.6 below par from the yellows. My index is 16.7 so I'm getting a PH of only 11 or 12. I just can't score with so few shots, I'm not good enough. My course is short but that doesn't make it easy for me. It means I might be hitting a wedge for my second shot, instead of a seven iron, but that doesn't make much difference to my GIR number. The bunkers and greens are both rubbish so they both cost me occasional shots too.

There are lots of reasons why, but it was over simplistic (of KenL) to claim that anyone scoring better away from home is a cheat.

I did not use the term cheat, I said they were “at it”, it was meant to be tongue in cheek.

It sounds like you need to join another club as the one you are a member of must be holding you back.

 

[LincolnShep]

I did not use the term cheat, I said they were “at it”, it was meant to be tongue in cheek.

It sounds like you need to join another club as the one you are a member of must be holding you back.

OK, I read "at it" to mean handicap manipulation.

It's true that my club is slightly shoddy but it ticks many boxes for me that most people aren't bothered about. The main one being it's £50 a year so I don't need to play it very often!

 

[clubchamp98]

We did have divisions in UHS though.

I agree with the points made on GP cards on here and they are certainly a source of manipulation which is either difficult /impossible or extremely time consuming to police.

I would be interested to know if participation in competitions has decreased since WHS, this is certainly not the case at my club or at many other clubs whose Handicap and Competition Committees that I have had dealings with and have spoken to.

Open comps around here were very often a joke prior to WHS as well - this doesn’t excuse WHS but at least the 4BB is a concrete step in the right direction.

My longtime worry is that we become closer to the US in terms if handicaps where they are virtually meaningless outside specific groups or clubs.

It was very hard to get a tee time on Saturday at ours a few years ago. Fastest finger first!

Now there are lots of empty tee slots after the main ones ( after 1pm) and last year was the worst for entries.

It might sound selfish but putting a system in that disadvantaged the better players in any sport was always going to be unpopular with that group of very vocal players.
The ones who invest more time and money into their game ( mostly anyway always exceptions)
This is what I see at my club.

The ones who dislike it still do.
The ones that like it like it more the more shots they get.
Most couldn’t care less

 

[KenL]

OK, I read "at it" to mean handicap manipulation.

It's true that my club is slightly shoddy but it ticks many boxes for me that most people aren't bothered about. The main one being it's £50 a year so I don't need to play it very often!

£50 a year. Cheapest golf in the world.

 

[clubchamp98]

Probably because the old system favoured low handicappers. Everyone played against a Standard Scratch Score (SSS) that was determined for scratch players.
Slope was introduced specifically to try and get parity.

But it hasn’t got parity.
It’s completely gone the other way.
I did accept low men had an advantage in UHS but why replace a system with another one that discriminates against them in a brand new system?