Green side water hazard

[timd77]

Hi, I’m sure this has been asked a before but I wanted to add the specifics of my course, we have 2 holes affected by ponds, both red stakes with a red line sprayed around them approx a yard from the water.

On the first hole, it’s a par 4, pond next to the green which sucks you in. In the summer if you hit the green too far left the ball can easily roll off the green and into the water. In fact, I’ve seen a putt roll into the water! Where do you drop for this? On that red line where the ball crossed making sure you’re not nearer the hole? Or do you have to go around the other side of the pond?

The second one is a par 3 over the pond, green slopes back to front. Obviously if you plop the ball straight in you drop this side of the water, but again, it’s easy to clear the water, ball pitches into the fringe and trickles back into the water. So with this, again, can you drop along the red line as long as you’re not nearer the hole from where the ball crossed?

Hoping I never need to use this but it’s bound to happen!

Cheers

 

[bobmac]

I was taught you can't drop a ball nearer the hole to where the ball finished.
That may have changed though

 

[salfordlad]

This is the Rule that answers your questions and it contains helpful diagrams.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-17.html

Focus on the first part, no need to get into the latter part (17.2) unless you are interested.

 

[salfordlad]

I was taught you can't drop a ball nearer the hole to where the ball finished.
That may have changed though

Finishing position of ball (providing it is in the penalty area) is not relevant to relief - the reference point for relief (can't drop closer to the hole than this) is point of last crossing the edge.

 

[bobmac]

So Jo Bloggs hits the green, screws back into the water.
If the water level is low could he drop in between the red line and the waters edge?

 

[Neilds]

So Jo Bloggs hits the green, screws back into the water.
If the water level is low could he drop in between the red line and the waters edge?

The drop has to be outside the hazard so has to be on the 'course' side of the line

 

[woofers]

What if the edge of the penalty area, (red line), follows the contour of the green , for example a ’C’ shape which effectively means any drop from the reference point will be nearer the hole? Should there be a drop zone ?

Let’s use diagram #2 17.1d but make the striped area the green and the flag in the middle of this, option 3 would not be available and option 2 would be on the opposite side of the water, in line with the ‘X’. Have I got that right?
And if the other side of the water is ‘unplayable’ due to it being either ‘jungle’ or a very large expanse of water, then stroke and distance is the only option?

 

[rulie]

What if the edge of the penalty area, (red line), follows the contour of the green , for example a ’C’ shape which effectively means any drop from the reference point will be nearer the hole? Should there be a drop zone ?

Let’s use diagram #2 17.1d but make the striped area the green and the flag in the middle of this, option 3 would not be available and option 2 would be on the opposite side of the water, in line with the ‘X’. Have I got that right?
And if the other side of the water is ‘unplayable’ due to it being either ‘jungle’ or a very large expanse of water, then stroke and distance is the only option?

Yes, that would be the only option in the circumstances that you have described. However, the Committee in charge of the course could (maybe should?) include a dropping zone as an additional option in the circumstances you have described.
Also, recall that in taking relief from a penalty area, you are permitted to drop on the putting green if that is part of the relief area.

 

[timd77]

Thanks for the replies and the link. I also found this r&a video quite helpful as it’s in more of an understandable language than the written rules (for me anyway!)

I guess the situations I described above aren’t that common, but the point to remember is where the ball crosses into the water and in what direction. As long as I’m taking 2 club lengths no nearer the hole then I’m ok to drop on the green side (rather than from where the original shot was played from or the other side of the water).

 

[rulie]

Thanks for the replies and the link. I also found this r&a video quite helpful as it’s in more of an understandable language than the written rules (for me anyway!)

I guess the situations I described above aren’t that common, but the point to remember is where the ball crosses into the water and in what direction. As long as I’m taking 2 club lengths no nearer the hole then I’m ok to drop on the green side (rather than from where the original shot was played from or the other side of the water).

Maybe a slight correction - it's not where the ball enters the water per se, but where it last crossed the edge of the penalty area - the red line or the line between red stakes.

 

[timd77]

Maybe a slight correction - it's not where the ball enters the water per se, but where it last crossed the edge of the penalty area - the red line or the line between red stakes.

Yeh, that’s it, thanks

 

[Colin L]

Maybe a slight correction - it's not where the ball enters the water per se, but where it last crossed the edge of the penalty area - the red line or the line between red stakes.

Worth noting that there isn't necessarily any water in a penalty area.

 

[salfordlad]

And depending on the shapes and angles, sometimes the relief area can be a very narrow sliver of ground.

 

[rulie]

And depending on the shapes and angles, sometimes the relief area can be a very narrow sliver of ground.

When I'm painting a red line near a green, I try hard not to follow the contour of the green with the line. It may look strange to some players, but it's meant to provide that sliver of ground.

 

[salfordlad]

When I'm painting a red line near a green, I try hard not to follow the contour of the green with the line. It may look strange to some players, but it's meant to provide that sliver of ground.

Ditto for ponds/lakes that need to be carried in the middle of the fairway, those lines might look odd and illogically connected to the PA but avoid the need for DZs.

 

[Steven Rules]

And depending on the shapes and angles, sometimes the relief area can be a very narrow sliver of ground.

A few years ago I did some calculations to work out mathematically how small that sliver of ground actually is.

The scenario in the attached diagrams is depicting the size of the lateral relief area where the straight edge of a red penalty area is running at right angles to the line joining the reference point to the hole. (The principle and numbers are the same if it was a lateral unplayable relief option for ball resting against a boundary fence.)

The first file depicts the 'exact' shape and dimensions of the relief area. The second file approximates the shape into the triangular 'wedge' (or sliver) that we all use in practice on the course.

A key takeaway is that the further you get from the hole, the narrower the wedge becomes. At a distance of 10m from the hole the wedge is less than a foot wide at its outermost extremity. At 30m from the hole it is less than 10cm wide.

 

[CountLippe]

A few years ago I did some calculations to work out mathematically how small that sliver of ground actually is.

The scenario in the attached diagrams is depicting the size of the lateral relief area where the straight edge of a red penalty area is running at right angles to the line joining the reference point to the hole. (The principle and numbers are the same if it was a lateral unplayable relief option for ball resting against a boundary fence.)

The first file depicts the 'exact' shape and dimensions of the relief area. The second file approximates the shape into the triangular 'wedge' (or sliver) that we all use in practice on the course.

A key takeaway is that the further you get from the hole, the narrower the wedge becomes. At a distance of 10m from the hole the wedge is less than a foot wide at its outermost extremity. At 30m from the hole it is less than 10cm wide.View attachment 47869View attachment 47870

Are you saying that, in effect, you can take a drop slightly closer to the hole ie the area marked 'a'?

 

[Steven Rules]

In theory (and remember this is geometry and mathematical computation not practical course application) the answer is a definite 'no'. In theory that 'area' that you call 'a' (a is actually a dimension, not an area, but I know what you mean) is not in the relief area.

But in practice, EVERYBODY measures that two club-length distance as a straight line, whereas it is actually a curve. Even the diagrams in the Rules (e.g. diagrams #2 17.1d and 19.2) depict it as a straight line. In practice, a straight line is "near enough".

As the note in the bottom left of the second picture states: "While the theoretical geometric shape of the relief area is not a perfect triangle or ’wedge’, given the dimensions involved and the realities of making measurements ‘in the field’, approximating the shape to a triangle would be an exercise of ‘reasonable judgement in the circumstances’ (Rule 1.3)."

 

[Backsticks]

For the ball rolling from green, back into the pond case (ie. back in the direction of the player), can you then drop on the far side of the green (keeping flag, and PA entry point in a line), and so not have to play over the pond with the next shot with the dropped ball ? ie, you only obliged to play over the pond with the dropped ball, if the original shot didnt make it over the pond to the green side at all. And so crossing point is on the players side ?
Or...can you play from the far side of the green, avoiding playing the dropped shot from the far side of the pond in both cases ?

 

[salfordlad]

For the ball rolling from green, back into the pond case (ie. back in the direction of the player), can you then drop on the far side of the green (keeping flag, and PA entry point in a line), and so not have to play over the pond with the next shot with the dropped ball ? ie, you only obliged to play over the pond with the dropped ball, if the original shot didnt make it over the pond to the green side at all. And so crossing point is on the players side ?
Or...can you play from the far side of the green, avoiding playing the dropped shot from the far side of the pond in both cases ?

If it is a red PA, the options are: a) S&D b) from reference point of point of last crossing, lateral relief within 2CL no nearer the hole than the reference point and outside the PA or c) BACK on line from the line from the reference point to the pin - which means behind the PA. Heading to the opposite side of the green is not an option.
If there is no area outside the PA that meets the restrictions in b), then only a) and c) are options, unless the Committee has established a DZ.