Tree Across Water Hazard

[Polly Popsicle]

At my local club, there is a large Ponderosa Pine tree located across (on the green side) of a red-staked, penalty area. The trunk of the tree is located outside and across the penalty area, however some limbs protrude back over the water towards the tee box. This tree is often in play and balls hit from the tee often strike the tree, rattle around and then fall back into the pond. How does one decide where the ball should be dropped and what principles are in play in this situation?

I read that the margin of a hazard extends vertically thus, must one determine with relative certainty that the ball crossed the vertical hazard line and then bounced backwards into the hazard in order to take relief on the green side of the pond? If one cannot determine with relative certainty that the ball crossed the hazard line in the air (tree is about 150 yds. from the tee) must one drop on the tee box side of the pond? If so you can imagine the "debate" that would ensue. Might a local rule simply stating that a ball striking this tree and dropping into the pond be played as if it crossed the penalty area?

 

[rulefan]

At my local club, there is a large Ponderosa Pine tree located across (on the green side) of a red-staked, penalty area. The trunk of the tree is located outside and across the penalty area, however some limbs protrude back over the water towards the tee box. This tree is often in play and balls hit from the tee often strike the tree, rattle around and then fall back into the pond. How does one decide where the ball should be dropped and what principles are in play in this situation?

I read that the margin of a hazard extends vertically thus, must one determine with relative certainty that the ball crossed the vertical hazard line and then bounced backwards into the hazard in order to take relief on the green side of the pond? If one cannot determine with relative certainty that the ball crossed the hazard line in the air (tree is about 150 yds. from the tee) must one drop on the tee box side of the pond? If so you can imagine the "debate" that would ensue. Might a local rule simply stating that a ball striking this tree and dropping into the pond be played as if it crossed the penalty area?

You must determine just where the ball last crossed the margin of the penalty area. If not known exactly then the spot must be estimated. That is the reference point for any relief but the relief area must not be nearer the hole than that spot. So that would take your suggestion out of the frame.

 

[backwoodsman]

As per Rulefan - you have to determine the point at which the ball last crossed the margin of the the PA.

As the tree is some 150 yds away from the tee, I think it will be very difficult to be sure the ball crossed right over the PA before it ricocheted back into the PA. Therefore, my opinion is that your default position is that the ball didn't cross right over the PA (ergo a drop tee-side of the PA) - unless you have strong evidence otherwise.

 

[Backsticks]

As per Rulefan - you have to determine the point at which the ball last crossed the margin of the the PA.

As the tree is some 150 yds away from the tee, I think it will be very difficult to be sure the ball crossed right over the PA before it ricocheted back into the PA. Therefore, my opinion is that your default position is that the ball didn't cross right over the PA (ergo a drop tee-side of the PA) - unless you have strong evidence otherwise.

Is that not somewhat of an unnecessarily masochistic approach? In determining where the ball last crossed the margin, you do not bias one way or the other. There isnt a default position. Just your judgement, which doesnt have to be strong evidence - just that you judge the evidence that it crossed to be greater than that it didnt. The evidence in favour might be minute, but that is sufficient.

 

[backwoodsman]

Is that not somewhat of an unnecessarily masochistic approach? In determining where the ball last crossed the margin, you do not bias one way or the other. There isnt a default position. Just your judgement, which doesnt have to be strong evidence - just that you judge the evidence that it crossed to be greater than that it didnt. The evidence in favour might be minute, but that is sufficient.

OK, I'll try to re-phrase as I'm not trying to suggest imposing any bias. Simply it's that at that distance, IMO, you'll have no real idea of whether it did or didn't fully cross the PA before dropping back into it. So, IMO, you'll need some decent evidence upon which to base a judgement that it did indeed cross the PA. Else, IMO, you'd have nothing to suggest that it did fully cross the PA and so you'd have no real option than a drop on the tee-side of it.

 

[rulefan]

Even if it did drop on the green side it is almost certain that relief would have to be taken on the tee side. Both S&D and BoL would force that and Lateral within 2 cl is most likely to be 'nearer the hole'.

 

[Colin L]

And to your question about whether a local rule could be used to state that a ball hitting the tree had gone beyond the further edge of the PA, the.answer has to be no.

 

[woofers]

Is this an instance of where a drop zone might be useful?

 

[Polly Popsicle]

Appreciate the responses. I should note that it is possible to take relief on the side of the penalty area closest to the green, but only by moving diagonally along the penalty area boundary back towards the tee. I am surmising that there is no limit on how far one needs to go along the penalty area line in order to gain relief that is no closer to the hole.

 

[rulie]

Appreciate the responses. I should note that it is possible to take relief on the side of the penalty area closest to the green, but only by moving diagonally along the penalty area boundary back towards the tee. I am surmising that there is no limit on how far one needs to go along the penalty area line in order to gain relief that is no closer to the hole.

Your assumption about no limit is incorrect. You are limited to two club-lengths from where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area, and no closer to the hole. If that isn't possible, then that option is not available.

 

[rulie]

Is this an instance of where a drop zone might be useful?

It is permitted for the Committee to use a dropping zone, say on the tee side of the penalty area, and make use of that dropping zone mandatory (except for stroke and distance) for a ball that is known or virtually certain to be in the penalty area.

 

[rulefan]

It is permitted for the Committee to use a dropping zone, say on the tee side of the penalty area, and make use of that dropping zone mandatory (except for stroke and distance) for a ball that is known or virtually certain to be in the penalty area.

I would suggest that such a DZ should not have the tree on the line of play.