Golf Random Irritations

[IanM]

Although the length of the course provides less than half the rating criteria.

(I'm sure the technical folk can expand on that)

But players' perception is reality... (and I am including myself in that)

 

[D-S]

Although the length of the course provides less than half the rating criteria.

I thought that length was actually the vast majority of CR - can’t find where I read that but I seem to recall that out of CR of an average 72 about 70 was length. I stand to be corrected and would be happy to learn more.

 

[CountLippe]

I'd almost be willing to bet my whole life savings (which isn't a lot tbf) on that someone who's home club is say Royal Cinque Ports, Carnoustie or Woodhall Spa and who has the same handicap index as myself (me - member parkland course) will produce a better score than me over time if we were to play at a neutral venue that none of us have played before.

That may not actually be true. Its common, particularly for younger talented golfers to get '2nd membership' at a course with a very high CR, because its easier to get a low handicap.

 

[chico]

I'd almost be willing to bet my whole life savings (which isn't a lot tbf) on that someone who's home club is say Royal Cinque Ports, Carnoustie or Woodhall Spa and who has the same handicap index as myself (me - member parkland course) will produce a better score than me over time if we were to play at a neutral venue that none of us have played before.

Played with a member at RCD who played of 7 and said at the time he would be scratch or better at my course.

 

[Deleted member 25172]

That may not actually be true. Its common, particularly for younger talented golfers to get '2nd membership' at a course with a very high CR, because its easier to get a low handicap.

Of course it may not. There's a thousand different scenarios we can come up with in which that wouldn't be the case. But in this theoretical scenario I'd obviously be talking about a regular member who play week in and week out at these courses.

 

[HampshireHog]

Opportunity arises in my schedule to play golf on Monday.

Course closed.

 

[Neilds]

20+ handicappers complaining that proposed changes to bunkers on a couple of hole are going to make our course too easy

 

[NearHull]

I thought that length was actually the vast majority of CR - can’t find where I read that but I seem to recall that out of CR of an average 72 about 70 was length. I stand to be corrected and would be happy to learn more.

I’m not a trained ‘course rater’ but I have assisted in a handful of initial ratings and recall the trained team members commenting that 90% of weighting is length. The landing areas, greens, bunkers, penalty areas, height of rough etc only influences the remaining 10%.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I'd almost be willing to bet my whole life savings (which isn't a lot tbf) on that someone who's home club is say Royal Cinque Ports, Carnoustie or Woodhall Spa and who has the same handicap index as myself (me - member parkland course) will produce a better score than me over time if we were to play at a neutral venue that none of us have played before.

Royal Cinque Ports
Par 72, CR 74.3 and SR 142. A score of 9-over par gets a score differential of 5.3

My parkland course.
Par 70, CR 70.8 and SR 132. A score of 7-over par gets a score differential of 5.3

If you believe that a 5.3 player from RCP has a huge advantage over a 5.3 player from my club at a neutral venue, is it because you believe that the CR at RCP should be higher than 74.3 as this would give the RCP player a lower HI?

It would seem to me that 9-over at RCP and 7-over at my club are fairly comparable in reflecting golfing ability calculated on best 8 of 20 rounds.

 

[Deleted member 25172]

Royal Cinque Ports
Par 72, CR 74.3 and SR 142. A score of 9-over par gets a score differential of 5.3

My parkland course.
Par 70, CR 70.8 and SR 132. A score of 7-over par gets a score differential of 5.3

If you believe that a 5.3 player from RCP has a huge advantage over a 5.3 player from my club at a neutral venue, is it because you believe that the CR at RCP should be higher than 74.3 as this would give the RCP player a lower HI?

It would seem to me that 9-over at RCP and 7-over at my club are fairly comparable in reflecting golfing ability calculated on best 8 of 20 rounds.

Huge advantage I do not know, but yes, I do believe that in general, that the same handicap index from those courses would be more likely to produce a better score over time.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Huge advantage I do not know, but yes, I do believe that in general, that the same handicap index from those courses would be more likely to produce a better score over time.

So should the CR of Royal Cinque Ports be higher?
The CR and SR of courses is supposed to equalise everything for all players of all abilities.
The two notional 5.3 players are supposed to have the same theoretical ability.
All that effort has been made in rating courses, but are they still far from being correct?

 

[Deleted member 25172]

So should the CR of Royal Cinque Ports be higher?
The CR and SR of courses is supposed to equalise everything for all players of all abilities.
The two notional 5.3 players are supposed to have the same theoretical ability.
All that effort has been made in rating courses, but are they still far from being correct?

I’m not claiming that I’d be able to find a better way of doing it. I’m just sharing what I believe is the case. I might be wrong, I might be right. I’ll most likely never know. And it’s not something that keeps me up at night.

 

[sunshine]

Weather can make any course more difficult, whatever its course rating and slope rating is.
Your statement is absurd this time

Yeah I made a bit of an error here bringing weather into the conversation. Of course PCC doesn’t seem to adequately reflect the impact of weather, but that’s a massive distraction.

Let’s just leave it with Carnoustie off the tips is massively more difficult than an average parkland course regardless of CR or SR.

I feel like you know this but are deliberately being obtuse. Or maybe you have just never played any proper championship courses?

 

[Voyager EMH]

Yeah I made a bit of an error here bringing weather into the conversation. Of course PCC doesn’t seem to adequately reflect the impact of weather, but that’s a massive distraction.

Let’s just leave it with Carnoustie off the tips is massively more difficult than an average parkland course regardless of CR or SR.

I feel like you know this but are deliberately being obtuse. Or maybe you have just never played any proper championship courses?

If Carnoustie is "massively more difficult than an average parkland course" then this should be reflected in the CR and SR which should then make them the same degree of "difficulty" unless there is something fundamental about the course rating and slope rating system that I have not grasped.

If what you say is true, then perhaps some serious changes need to be made to the way ratings are done. I don't know what that would be. Do you have any ideas?
It seems there is a fundamental flaw in this that I was not aware of.
A player from a club with a "proper championship course" who has the same HI as a player from an "average parkland course" is supposed to be on equal terms.
Has any research been done on this failure of the system?

 

[sunshine]

If Carnoustie is "massively more difficult than an average parkland course" then this should be reflected in the CR and SR which should then make them the same degree of "difficulty" unless there is something fundamental about the course rating and slope rating system that I have not grasped.

If what you say is true, then perhaps some serious changes need to be made to the way ratings are done. I don't know what that would be. Do you have any ideas?
It seems there is a fundamental flaw in this that I was not aware of.
A player from a club with a "proper championship course" who has the same HI as a player from an "average parkland course" is supposed to be on equal terms.
Has any research been done on this failure of the system?

Do you genuinely believe this? Have you played RCP or Carnoustie? CR is reflective of a scratch player who should be a good ball striker. I’ve seen plenty of mid handicap players with dodgy swings and a limited range of shot making skills who are able to poke the ball around a short course in 9 over, because they have a consistent shot. Put them on a championship course with 200 yard carries to the fairway, deep pot bunkers etc and they are stuffed. They don’t break 100 let alone get close to the “WHS differential”

 

[cliveb]

Do you genuinely believe this? Have you played RCP or Carnoustie? CR is reflective of a scratch player who should be a good ball striker. I’ve seen plenty of mid handicap players with dodgy swings and a limited range of shot making skills who are able to poke the ball around a short course in 9 over, because they have a consistent shot. Put them on a championship course with 200 yard carries to the fairway, deep pot bunkers etc and they are stuffed. They don’t break 100 let alone get close to the “WHS differential”

Let me first state that I believe some of the CRs and SRs of courses are way off, and it's probably a flaw in the calculation formula.

That said, the principle behind CR and SR is sound. Provided they are realistic for the course, then yes, the system should make handicap indexes "course agnostic".

I've never played a really tough course like Carnoustie, but my guess is that its bogey rating (and therefore slope) is probably way too low.

 

[ExRabbit]

Not a random irritation - a real one - why has this thread become a discussion about course difficulty? Surely this should be discussed elsewhere.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Not a random irritation - a real one - why has this thread become a discussion about course difficulty? Surely this should be discussed elsewhere.

In effect, 'get a room'

 

[Voyager EMH]

Do you genuinely believe this? Have you played RCP or Carnoustie? CR is reflective of a scratch player who should be a good ball striker. I’ve seen plenty of mid handicap players with dodgy swings and a limited range of shot making skills who are able to poke the ball around a short course in 9 over, because they have a consistent shot. Put them on a championship course with 200 yard carries to the fairway, deep pot bunkers etc and they are stuffed. They don’t break 100 let alone get close to the “WHS differential”

Excellent piece of research, thank you.
So what do you suggest should be done about this?

It seems that amateurs from "very tough" courses will have inflated handicaps and could clean up in opens.
Elite amateurs are disadvantaged by being members at such courses. They need to keep their handicaps low in order to qualify for elite events.

There ought to be extensive research and fact finding about this very important controversial issue.

 

[JonnyGutteridge]

Struggling with putting and it’s as much between the ears as it is anything else. I feel like I hit so many good putts and hole so many good ones during a course of a round, but also have several 3 putts which scramble my brain.

I can watch someone putt on the exact same line as me, it’ll break right to left. I then putt it on the correct line and it goes the other way. If I hit a putt firm, it lips out - then I hit it less firm and it wobbles and loses it’s line.

I hit a putt today that went very clearly up the slope. I hit a few practice putts after on the same line - all seemed to break normally, the opposite way to what my putt had done.

It’s additionally frustrating as I’m playing some very good stuff tee to green.