Yellow penalty area query

[Smitty55]

New member so sorry if this has been covered before, but is causing issues at my club.
Par 3 with pond (yellow posts) protects half of green. If flag is on the left of green there is no pond in direct line of tee to flag.

Scenario :-

Your tee shot lands just short of green and spins left. The place it crossed into pond means you can drop your ball and play a shot without going over the pond ( which you didn’t have to in original tee shot). If you use the rule of using a club length to allow a drop (no nearer hole) this will give a better lie.

What is the rule?

Do you always have to keep the hazard between you and the flag regardless of where you went in the hazard even if the club relief rule would facilitate this?

 

[Smitty55]

Sorry it should be “the flag on the right of the green”

 

[rulefan]

You take a line from the hole through the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the Penalty Area (no longer called a water hazard). You can go back as far as you like on that line. That is called Back on the Line relief.

See the diagram and video in 17.1d here:
https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-17

Note the new detailed instructions on where exactly to drop.

As it is not marked red you cannot use the lateral relief option (which is 2cl not nearer the hole)

 

[Smitty55]

You take a line from the hole through the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the Penalty Area (no longer called a water hazard). You can go back as far as you like on that line. That is called Back on the Line relief.

See the diagram and video in 17.1d here:
https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-17

Note the new detailed instructions on where exactly to drop.

As it is not marked red you cannot use the lateral relief option (which is 2cl not nearer the hole)

 

[Smitty55]

Thanks Rulefan, and sorry if I appear a little think, but in the shown diagram, the player hits a hook shot which goes in the pond on the very right of it. The flag is on the right of the green ( not in the middle as in diagram). The point of entry would not have the pond between it and the flag.
What do you do now?

 

[rulefan]

Just do as I wrote in the first paragraph. If the line doesn't cross the water you just got lucky.

 

[duncan mackie]

If you use the rule of using a club length to allow a drop (no nearer hole) this will give a better lie.

What is the rule?

Do you always have to keep the hazard between you and the flag regardless of where you went in the hazard even if the club relief rule would facilitate this?

Where you refer to the club length here I suspect that you are considering the validity of a relief area to the side of your relief line.

You are aware of the clarification made (well rule change really!) that states that the point on the line itself must now be outside the penalty area, from which you may then establish your relief area?

I'm struggling to picture this now being available in the scenario you outline - although it could previously have been quite easily.

If the shape of the penalty area margin is such that it is, then as said, you just got lucky.

 

[rulefan]

Thanks Rulefan, and sorry if I appear a little think, but in the shown diagram, the player hits a hook shot which goes in the pond on the very right of it. The flag is on the right of the green ( not in the middle as in diagram). The point of entry would not have the pond between it and the flag.
What do you do now?

I'm out for the rest of the day. I'll post a diagram when I get back

Is this what you mean? But I couldn't work out a diagram that didn't involve the ball passing over a tiny bit of the margin (ie references point) as that is what it is supposed to do.

 

[rulefan]

Oops. Moved the hole but didn't change the arrow

 

[duncan mackie]

I'm out for the rest of the day. I'll post a diagram when I get back

Is this what you mean? But I couldn't work out a diagram that didn't involve the ball passing over a tiny bit of the margin (ie references point) as that is what it is supposed to do.

The ball can pass up to 1cl to the right of the penalty area margin in the diagram drawn because the entry point is at the extreme right margin of the area.

I'm still a little confused as to the concern being raised. No doubt it will become clear in time.

 

[rulefan]

My diagram wrongly equates the crossing point with the reference point. With BOL, the reference point is on the line at the distance where the player chooses to drop. The ball may be dropped within 1cl of this point and therefore may 1cl be to the right. This would mean that the direct line to the hole would be slightly to the right of the PA.

It is only for lateral relief from a red PA where the two points are the same

 

[rulefan]

New member so sorry if this has been covered before, but is causing issues at my club.
Par 3 with pond (yellow posts) protects half of green. If flag is on the left of green there is no pond in direct line of tee to flag.

Scenario :-

Your tee shot lands just short of green and spins left. The place it crossed into pond means you can drop your ball and play a shot without going over the pond ( which you didn’t have to in original tee shot). If you use the rule of using a club length to allow a drop (no nearer hole) this will give a better lie.

What is the rule?

Do you always have to keep the hazard between you and the flag regardless of where you went in the hazard even if the club relief rule would facilitate this?

On re reading this, I'm now not sure what the issue is.
You say this is a yellow penalty area. The relief from which is either stroke and distance or back on line (which is covered by the diagram).

What do you mean by 'If you use the rule of using a club length to allow a drop (no nearer hole) this will give a better lie' ? Are you thinking of 'lateral relief'. ie dropping to the side of the PA?

 

[oltimer]

The old rule required one to still have to play "over" the hazard wheras the new rule whilst still requiring the same drop procedure now then allows one club length in any direction (not nearer), it seems in the situ given this could now result in a shot to the Green without having to play "over" the haz (p/a). maybe not direct at the flag but an easier shot onto a part of the Green. I think it is this that is confusing some but is Now within the Rules.

 

[rulefan]

The old rule required one to still have to play "over" the hazard wheras the new rule whilst still requiring the same drop procedure now then allows one club length in any direction (not nearer), it seems in the situ given this could now result in a shot to the Green without having to play "over" the haz (p/a). maybe not direct at the flag but an easier shot onto a part of the Green. I think it is this that is confusing some but is Now within the Rules.

Yes. The old rule meant that the player had to drop on the line in my diagram. Now the player can drop 1cl to the side of that line, so the line of sight may no longer be over the PA.
But I would suggest this will be a very infrequent occurrence and the PA would be close enough for the player to have to think.

See modification in blue

 

[backwoodsman]

Yes. The old rule meant that the player had to drop on the line in my diagram. Now the player can drop 1cl to the side of that line, so the line of sight may no longer be over the PA.
But I would suggest this will be a very infrequent occurrence and the PA would be close enough for the player to have to think.

See modification in blue

I was struggling to envisage any situation where a ball played from, say, "point A" towards flag at "point B" and goes into the penalty area at "point C" would not have to be played over the PA if dropped on the extension of the line B-C. Rulefan's diagram shows it is possible. But it does also show that it's only possible if point C is the absolute lateral extremity of the PA. Even then, in many circumstances, you may well still be playing over the PA. If not, you'll be darn close to doing so.

The ability to now drop up to 1CL sideways of the line, may well avail you of a slightly better lie in which to drop - good luck if it does. But I'd suggest that it will offer no psychological advantage whatsoever. It certainly wouldn't to me.

 

[*TQ*]

I'm not nearly accurate enough for one club length to affect whether my ball is going over the penalty area or not.