European Super League

[PJ87]

https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/#/yr/2021

If the German clubs and PSG declined than that puts us in the top 12. I was going to look for West Ham in the list but I got bored of scrolling.


Every single one of them would have. Ask a chairman "we're going to set up this new venture which is basically printing money for all of us, would you like to be a part of it, or do you want to miss out and pick up the scraps with everyone else?" and every single one of them would have said 'where do we sign?'.

Yet apart from one final what has come of that money?

You have the best striker in the league .. possibly the world

Money off the pitch hasnt brought the success it should so big 6? Really.

Leicester have won the league recently

Just pure greed from the owners without success to try and get a piece of the pie

All the spurs fans I know hope this is the final nail in Levy's coffin as they can't stand him

Plus a points deduction to secure champs league? There is a reasonable chance we could get it anyways ...

I wonder how many of the bottom 14 clubs are going to suddenly get a lift playing against the elite .. worked for Brighton last night

 

[Rlburnside]

It's a good question and a very complex issue with no perfect answer. You would ideally introduce a 51 percent fan ownership ratio at the same time. A football trust set up by the government to take control of every club, with future profits to repay it? You'd then allow outside investment for the 49% with strict guildelines on who can buy.

Unfortunately though the Glazers, FSG and Kroenke are going to walk away with billions in profit whatever. The mistake was made when clubs floated and the FA allowed the owners to pass the fit and proper test. In business terms these owners have made the deal of the century. Let's hope they decide now is the time to take their profits and go.

I agree once the billionaires were allowed to buy clubs the slippery slope started, but fans can be fickle and success is accepted no matter what.

When Chelsea were winning trophy’s not much thought was given to where the owner made his money, Manchester City’s owners come from a country that has appalling civil rights a country where domestic violence is legal yet fans still flock to support these teams.

I have sympathy for Liverpool fans once their club was taken over by the Americans their club was never going to be the same again.

I recently watched the 3 Kings about Busby, Shankly and Stein and seen how clubs were born out of fans that are the bedrock of these clubs,these foreign owners have little interest in fans of the clubs they own.

 

[Blue in Munich]

If you want to look at the root cause of the issue, try Bosman & agents. There are players out there clearing more in a week than coppers, nurses & firemen clear in a decade and that won't be covered by gate money however big the stadium is. Unfortunately that genie is out of the bottle & for all the talk of salary caps it's never going back in unless the entire world of football agrees to it.

 

[PJ87]

If you want to look at the root cause of the issue, try Bosman & agents. There are players out there clearing more in a week than coppers, nurses & firemen clear in a decade and that won't be covered by gate money however big the stadium is. Unfortunately that genie is out of the bottle & for all the talk of salary caps it's never going back in unless the entire world of football agrees to it.

Lord sugar posted this yesterday, a snippet from his autobiography. When he was chairman of spurs

 

[Orikoru]

Yet apart from one final what has come of that money?

You have the best striker in the league .. possibly the world

Money off the pitch hasnt brought the success it should so big 6? Really.

Leicester have won the league recently

Just pure greed from the owners without success to try and get a piece of the pie

All the spurs fans I know hope this is the final nail in Levy's coffin as they can't stand him

Plus a points deduction to secure champs league? There is a reasonable chance we could get it anyways ...

I wonder how many of the bottom 14 clubs are going to suddenly get a lift playing against the elite .. worked for Brighton last night

I don't hate Levy. I don't think we'd be where we are without him. The fans that hate him are the ones we've discussed earlier who just wanted him to throw money around left right and centre.

In terms of league performance, I assume this Euro League wasn't just spitballed overnight - in 18/19 the "Big 6" were in fact the top six in the league, and the following season it was only Arsenal who dropped out.

 

[PJ87]

I don't hate Levy. I don't think we'd be where we are without him. The fans that hate him are the ones we've discussed earlier who just wanted him to throw money around left right and centre.

In terms of league performance, I assume this Euro League wasn't just spitballed overnight - in 18/19 the "Big 6" were in fact the top six in the league, and the following season it was only Arsenal who dropped out.

Thing is levy isn't the money, hes just the face of it ..

He has a share but Joe Lewis is the guy

Spurs used to do great buisness with signing so many championship and young players like Townsend, routledge .. bale mark 1.. just you know taking a punt that players would work but when they didn't work they were sold still for a massive profit ..

It's recently where no players were bought for 500 days and the team went backwards due to lack of investment that really tells

 

[Orikoru]

Thing is levy isn't the money, hes just the face of it ..

He has a share but Joe Lewis is the guy

Spurs used to do great buisness with signing so many championship and young players like Townsend, routledge .. bale mark 1.. just you know taking a punt that players would work but when they didn't work they were sold still for a massive profit ..

It's recently where no players were bought for 500 days and the team went backwards due to lack of investment that really tells

I don't think he's done a lot wrong personally. Perhaps Poch can feel a bit hard done by that he wasn't given the bigger signings that José was, that's the only thing I would say.

 

[RichA]

This post isnt aimed at anyone on here, its a generalisation before anyone takes big offence.
As a fan of a 'small club' its massively disheartening to watch your club systematically taken apart every transfer window by the 'big' clubs bullying their way through waving ridiculous sums of money to tempt players/managers away, safe in the knowledge they are untouchable even when they blatantly break rules to get their target. Every time it happens we have to put up with 'fans'of these clubs coming on our message boards and facebook groups, lording it over us bragging how big they are and how they'll just take who they want, because they can. Its hard to feel any sympathy for these fans at the moment, even though the whole of football community has come together in solidarity with them. Hopefully when the dust has settled they might remember this and show the smaller clubs a bit more respect and humility. I'm probably hoping for too much i know...

Totally agree with you, but most of our "smaller" clubs only survive by nurturing young players in the hope of selling them on to a Prem at some point in the future. League One and Two teams will always struggle to survive on gate receipts and advertising revenue.

 

[4LEX]

To be honest I think Levy is the worst of the bunch, along with Woodward.

The Americans have no idea of the culture of football in the UK, these guys do and they still went ahead with it. These are money men, nothing else. Woodward is gone and Levy should be going the same way.

Levy actually had a world class manager, playing brilliant football and failed to back him when Spurs were so close. Poch had Spurs outperforming their budget by miles. Even the decision to sack Mourinho is bizarre. Since he took over he has averaged 4th place in points per game and got to a cup final. That's with both key players being injury prone and losing so many points from winning positions due to the weak centre backs. Levy is toxic and the stadium papers over the cracks and what Spurs under him are all about.

 

[Rlburnside]

Thing is levy isn't the money, hes just the face of it ..

He has a share but Joe Lewis is the guy

Spurs used to do great buisness with signing so many championship and young players like Townsend, routledge .. bale mark 1.. just you know taking a punt that players would work but when they didn't work they were sold still for a massive profit ..

It's recently where no players were bought for 500 days and the team went backwards due to lack of investment that really tells

Levy has nearly 30% stake in ENIC the company that has the major shareholding in Spurs, it’s disgraceful that he proposed joining the ESL. but at least he is a lifelong Spurs fan and has overseen the new stadium.

Joe Lewis to my knowledge has no input of the day to day running of the club but he has interests in America including golf courses, I would be surprised if Levy didn’t consult with him on joining the thankfully abandoned ESL

 

[PJ87]

And so here the great distraction is done

New champions League format

The new Champions League means every club will be guaranteed 10 games, increasing revenue for each team involved.

As for the additional slots, three different criteria will determine the four extra teams.

One slot will be awarded to a club from the country placed fifth in UEFA's coefficient rankings.

Another slot will be awarded to the domestic league champion with the highest club coefficient among the other domestic champions who have not automatically qualified.

The final two slots will be awarded to the two clubs with the highest club coefficients who have not qualified automatically.

 

[road2ruin]

To be honest I think Levy is the worst of the bunch, along with Woodward.

The Americans have no idea of the culture of football in the UK, these guys do and they still went ahead with it. These are money men, nothing else. Woodward is gone and Levy should be going the same way.

As a United fan it saddens me to watch what has happened to us since the Glazers took over the ESL is pretty much a result of people like them being allowed to take over our clubs, it was only ever going to end one way when you allow people who are only interested in money to own football clubs. Whilst the ESL was their baby and they should shoulder the responsibility the PL and FA are also complicit by allowing it to happen in the first place, they were happy to accept the money that they brought but don't like the consequences.

In terms of Woodward he's a glorified accountant and if you take that into account his reign as been an unqualified success, the commercial side of the business has never been stronger even though the results of the pitch have been pretty average. He's exactly the sort of man that most companies would like in charge, he makes money and that's what the owners hold above anything else.

 

[4LEX]

As a United fan it saddens me to watch what has happened to us since the Glazers took over the ESL is pretty much a result of people like them being allowed to take over our clubs, it was only ever going to end one way when you allow people who are only interested in money to own football clubs. Whilst the ESL was their baby and they should shoulder the responsibility the PL and FA are also complicit by allowing it to happen in the first place, they were happy to accept the money that they brought but don't like the consequences.

In terms of Woodward he's a glorified accountant and if you take that into account his reign as been an unqualified success, the commercial side of the business has never been stronger even though the results of the pitch have been pretty average. He's exactly the sort of man that most companies would like in charge, he makes money and that's what the owners hold above anything else.

Totally agree in the first part.

Woodward helped the Glazers finance the leveraged buy out, they rewarded him with a job down the line. I think anyone would have got good deals out of Utd over the last 8 years though, his part is overstated. He's been a failure from start to finish. The debt has increased massively, transfers and wage squandered.

 

[road2ruin]

I think anyone would have got good deals out of Utd over the last 8 years though, his part is overstated. He's been a failure from start to finish. The debt has increased massively, transfers and wage squandered.

On the transfers and wages front we have spent poorly. We have overpaid on some and missed out on others as we felt that they weren't worth it, it's been a mess although Matt Judge has to take some responsiblity for that as he's the man in charge of the actual negotiations. Woodward is there looking at the bottom line and it's only the money that interests him in a deal. I still feel sorry for Fellaini, we could have bought him for £22m or so but dicked about and his buyout clause period passed and we panicked on transfer deadline day and we paid £28m for him. It was never his fault that we overpaid but he was made a scapegoat of that.

 

[sunshine]

It’s reported that Harry Maguire confronted Ed Woodward and asked why the players and staff had been allowed to prepare and take the pitch for the Burnley game on Sunday knowing nothing of the ESL proposals, despite the news breaking during that game.

I remain absolutely staggered that club owners have signed up to this deal and not had the nous to make any effort whatsoever to establish if their managers want to manage in the ESL and, more importantly, whether their players want to play in it. Marcus Rashford’s comments yesterday were pretty clear - if United had joined a Super League they would be doing so without him. A player who is one of the club’s prize assets. How many more like him would there be amongst the so-called “Big Six”? And Ed Woodward and co run these clubs without, it seems, any understanding at all of the thoughts of the very people who put bums on seats in the first place.

It’s breathtakingly arrogant, inept mismanagement. I see the clubs involved have suggested they have bowed to the wishes of the fans. I’m less than convinced. I think the reality is they realised, very quickly, that they presided over players who had no wish to be involved. No players, no Super League. It’s that simple.

Outside of football, I wouldn't expect the owners of a business to discuss an acquisition or sale with their staff. Discussions remain with the Board. After a deal has been signed there might be an employee consultation process if the business is changing.

Player power in football is staggering. On the one hand I admire a player for standing up for his principles, although not sure about Harry Maguire's principles when he's on holiday. I expect a business to consult with its staff... but it's not up to the players to decide how the business is run.

 

[Sweep]

Not sure you quite understand how the PL works, it’s not down to just 6 Clubs to tell the other 14 how things will work in the future, the ESL wasn’t just a perfectly alternative marketplace, it depended on the PL doing what they were told by the 6.

Weird how fans from the other “Big 6” Clubs wanted City banned/punished etc when found guilty of breakin FFP rules, but now they’ve been caught out we are getting the “it’s not fair on the fans” to punish them, surely the City fans had nothing to do with breaking the FFP rules?

First thing that needs to be established is if any actual rules have been broken, until we know that, any talk of punishments should be shelved.

I believe there needs to be some accountability, what or how? I don’t know, otherwise this hasn’t been stopped, just delayed.

I understand perfectly how the Premier League works, thanks.
Any business is legally entitled to form associations with any other. There are in fact laws against restricting this. The 6 weren’t telling the other PL clubs how the PL would work. They were forming another league and taking a risk they would be allowed to remain competing in the PL alongside it.
Whether the 6 are punished is, in my view, nothing to do with the fans. Lots of fans turn up in foul weather to watch their lower league clubs compete with no chance of any glory whatsoever. Fans of the 6 will do the same. Punishments would be imposed simply to deter clubs from doing the same again. How’s that for a closed shop? Is that legal?
People were annoyed at City breaking the FFP rules because they actually broke actual rules.
As you say, people are clamouring to punish the 6 when they don’t even know if any rules have been broken. At the same time they are conveniently forgetting that without the 6 the PL is much diminished, less attractive and... oh yes, much less of a cash cow for their own clubs.

 

[PJ87]

I understand perfectly how the Premier League works, thanks.
Any business is legally entitled to form associations with any other. There are in fact laws against restricting this. The 6 weren’t telling the other PL clubs how the PL would work. They were forming another league and taking a risk they would be allowed to remain competing in the PL alongside it.
Whether the 6 are punished is, in my view, nothing to do with the fans. Lots of fans turn up in foul weather to watch their lower league clubs compete with no chance of any glory whatsoever. Fans of the 6 will do the same. Punishments would be imposed simply to deter clubs from doing the same again. How’s that for a closed shop? Is that legal?
People were annoyed at City breaking the FFP rules because they actually broke actual rules.
As you say, people are clamouring to punish the 6 when they don’t even know if any rules have been broken. At the same time they are conveniently forgetting that without the 6 the PL is much diminished, less attractive and... oh yes, much less of a cash cow for their own clubs.

But there is a rule that members can't compete in another league that's not sanctioned by the fa or uefa etc

 

[4LEX]

On the transfers and wages front we have spent poorly. We have overpaid on some and missed out on others as we felt that they weren't worth it, it's been a mess although Matt Judge has to take some responsiblity for that as he's the man in charge of the actual negotiations. Woodward is there looking at the bottom line and it's only the money that interests him in a deal. I still feel sorry for Fellaini, we could have bought him for £22m or so but dicked about and his buyout clause period passed and we panicked on transfer deadline day and we paid £28m for him. It was never his fault that we overpaid but he was made a scapegoat of that.

Fellaini actually provided value for money over his time at the club. Never a Utd player but always gave it his best, scored goals and gave the weak midfield some spite. That moves sums up it all though. Moyes was a dire appointment but he wanted Fabregas and got Fellaini instead. Every signing since has been reactive rather than proactive. So much deadwood at Utd you could build a forest. I think unless the Glazers are forced out his replacement will be another investment banker.

Judge and the new restructure is a farce. Jobs for the boys and yes men. It goes right to upto Ole, he's another yes man with nothing about himself other than soundbites. Woodward got him as a stooge, fortune has favoured him but he'll be found out next season.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I understand perfectly how the Premier League works, thanks.
Any business is legally entitled to form associations with any other. There are in fact laws against restricting this. The 6 weren’t telling the other PL clubs how the PL would work. They were forming another league and taking a risk they would be allowed to remain competing in the PL alongside it.
Whether the 6 are punished is, in my view, nothing to do with the fans. Lots of fans turn up in foul weather to watch their lower league clubs compete with no chance of any glory whatsoever. Fans of the 6 will do the same. Punishments would be imposed simply to deter clubs from doing the same again. How’s that for a closed shop? Is that legal?
People were annoyed at City breaking the FFP rules because they actually broke actual rules.
As you say, people are clamouring to punish the 6 when they don’t even know if any rules have been broken. At the same time they are conveniently forgetting that without the 6 the PL is much diminished, less attractive and... oh yes, much less of a cash cow for their own clubs.

The 6 were telling the others how the PL would work, otherwise they’d of announced plans and held discussions with the others. They were saying who would or would not qualify for Europe via PL finish, not UEFA or the PL.

If the PL do nothing, how long until the 6 learn from their mistakes and try again?

There has to be some sort of action if they have broken rules.

As for all this “we need the 6” we don’t, let’s just pretend they disappeared off the face of the earth overnight, Football would continue, yes their maybe some downturn, but it would recover, they are not bigger than the game! Fans of other Clubs wouldn’t lose their passion or love for the game and the glory hunters would move on to the next team.

The game is bigger than the 6, and what people are doing is falling for their sob story. If someone billionaire buys Norwich tomorrow and they become the next Man City are they then the “Big 7”.

No Club or a few Club have the right to decide the future of our game.

 

[Sweep]

But there is a rule that members can't compete in another league that's not sanctioned by the fa or uefa etc

That’s true. And they haven’t.