European Super League

[fundy]

Football is big business.

The weird bit is that no one really makes any money out of it.

Take Arsenal, because that is a club I know more about.

It is worth around 2 bn. (Apparently, if the Kroenkes were to sell).

Every year it makes money from the fans, the broadcasting, the premiership, European footy, etc. May be some player sales (we are not good at this).

This money is then spent on inflated new deals, player wages, and transfers (plus running costs for the business, etc).

Before it got de-listed from the London exchange and re-listed in Denver, all the Kroenkes made was a 5m consultancy fee. The fans were livid they were taking this money out of the club. Now it is in Denver, who knows what they do, but bear with me on this.

The Kroenkes are business men. For a 2bn investment, they are only getting a 5m return? That is chump change. The only way they can make money, would be a new deal like the ESL, or heavily revised TV deals, negotiated by the club, not by the Prem. If there was enough of an increase, they could sneak more cash out without anyone really noticing.

Or, they could sell the club to the next Billionaire investor, and he would have the same problem.

Theyve "created" huge value for themselves in what the club is worth if they were to resell it compared to what they paid for it, can cash their chips in anytime they want, hes got a paper profit in the region of £1bn currently

 

[Reemul]

I love the defense of, oh well the rest of you would have done it if you could. Lowest of the low and not unexpected from some fans really.

It's like my youngest kid's run of excuses every time he gets in to trouble but but but..they they they would have...

 

[larmen]

Football is big business.

The weird bit is that no one really makes any money out of it.

Take Arsenal, because that is a club I know more about.

It is worth around 2 bn. (Apparently, if the Kroenkes were to sell).

Every year it makes money from the fans, the broadcasting, the premiership, European footy, etc. May be some player sales (we are not good at this).

This money is then spent on inflated new deals, player wages, and transfers (plus running costs for the business, etc).

Before it got de-listed from the London exchange and re-listed in Denver, all the Kroenkes made was a 5m consultancy fee. The fans were livid they were taking this money out of the club. Now it is in Denver, who knows what they do, but bear with me on this.

The Kroenkes are business men. For a 2bn investment, they are only getting a 5m return? That is chump change. The only way they can make money, would be a new deal like the ESL, or heavily revised TV deals, negotiated by the club, not by the Prem. If there was enough of an increase, they could sneak more cash out without anyone really noticing.

Or, they could sell the club to the next Billionaire investor, and he would have the same problem.

The spiral you describe doesn’t make it sound like a great investment. Maybe as a pet project for a Sheikh or an oligarch. One who doesn’t care how much money one burns to buy a trophy or two.

As someone mentioned before, FFP is weak.

 

[Billysboots]

This really.

I understand how any of the teams, if invited, would accept the "opportunity". If you are offered the chance to be part of it and get that sort of income guaranteed, in today's world of football, it would be financial suicide to reject the offer. I think this was all about creating a European version of Major League Soccer, which is just not how we play. The whole point of the league system is that there is always something to play for, winning has rewards, and losing has consequences. If that is taken away, whilst still guaranteeing money far greater than you would receive in the current setup it destroys the whole fabric of competition. I think the whole thing was dreamed up by the owners, I would be surprised if any of the players or managers had any say in it at all, let alone agreed to it. Punishing the teams by docking points or bans, you are effectively punishing the players, and fans, who had no say. Somehow, the owners need punishing in a way that doesn't effect the players, managers and fans. Not sure how that can be done, perhaps there is a way they can be ejected from their positions as owners?

It’s reported that Harry Maguire confronted Ed Woodward and asked why the players and staff had been allowed to prepare and take the pitch for the Burnley game on Sunday knowing nothing of the ESL proposals, despite the news breaking during that game.

I remain absolutely staggered that club owners have signed up to this deal and not had the nous to make any effort whatsoever to establish if their managers want to manage in the ESL and, more importantly, whether their players want to play in it. Marcus Rashford’s comments yesterday were pretty clear - if United had joined a Super League they would be doing so without him. A player who is one of the club’s prize assets. How many more like him would there be amongst the so-called “Big Six”? And Ed Woodward and co run these clubs without, it seems, any understanding at all of the thoughts of the very people who put bums on seats in the first place.

It’s breathtakingly arrogant, inept mismanagement. I see the clubs involved have suggested they have bowed to the wishes of the fans. I’m less than convinced. I think the reality is they realised, very quickly, that they presided over players who had no wish to be involved. No players, no Super League. It’s that simple.

 

[4LEX]

It was utterly cowardly to announce it on a Sunday night, during a pandemic with no fans in the stadium and have the website ready to roll. Any owners who signed upto this shoud be banned from football for life and declared not fit for purpose. Ban all these clubs from the CL for 3 years and watch the value plummet and sponsors cancel. Force these owners out via the only language they understand - money.

The football authorites and the goverment need to review ownership of every club and CPO's placed on those behind this and any other horrendously run clubs. Sky aren't innocent in the way football has gone either, clubs down the football ladder should get more and the players less. The wages of agents and players are driving a lot of this too. Haaland being hawked around for 1m a week in wages is obscene and his agent set to make £50m from the deal this summer. That's almost double the total Premier League bail out to the entire football league.

 

[stefanovic]

Don't understand why the ESL was called greedy with clubs not invited crying foul. They would have been in there like a shot rather than scoring an own goal.
It's only a matter of time before a rethink.
Coming soon:
Man U v Barcelona KO 0100 GMT in Los Angeles.
Chelsea v Juventus KO 0300 GMT in Beijing.

As for objections from the EPL - they were the original greed league.

 

[USER1999]

It was utterly cowardly to announce it on a Sunday night, during a pandemic with no fans in the stadium and have the website ready to roll. Any owners who signed upto this shoud be banned from football for life and declared not fit for purpose. Ban all these clubs from the CL for 3 years and watch the value plummet and sponsors cancel. Force these owners out via the only language they understand - money.

The football authorites and the goverment need to review ownership of every club and CPO's placed on those behind this and any other horrendously run clubs. Sky aren't innocent in the way football has gone either, clubs down the football ladder should get more and the players less. The wages of agents and players are driving a lot of this too. Haaland being hawked around for 1m a week in wages is obscene and his agent set to make £50m from the deal this summer. That's almost double the total Premier League bail out to the entire football league.

So a CPO is served on Arsenal, who is goinv to buy it?
It's worth 2bn. Who has that? Another unsuitable person.
Also, Kroenke trousers 1bn profit (see Fundy above, and he is right). Some punishment.

 

[Billysboots]

It was utterly cowardly to announce it on a Sunday night, during a pandemic with no fans in the stadium and have the website ready to roll. Any owners who signed upto this shoud be banned from football for life and declared not fit for purpose. Ban all these clubs from the CL for 3 years and watch the value plummet and sponsors cancel. Force these owners out via the only language they understand - money.

The football authorites and the goverment need to review ownership of every club and CPO's placed on those behind this and any other horrendously run clubs. Sky aren't innocent in the way football has gone either, clubs down the football ladder should get more and the players less. The wages of agents and players are driving a lot of this too. Haaland being hawked around for 1m a week in wages is obscene and his agent set to make £50m from the deal this summer. That's almost double the total Premier League bail out to the entire football league.

I suspect the announcement was made at that time to capture the markets in the US and Asia. The European Super League was never intended for the European market.

 

[4LEX]

So a CPO is served on Arsenal, who is goinv to buy it?
It's worth 2bn. Who has that? Another unsuitable person.
Also, Kroenke trousers 1bn profit (see Fundy above, and he is right). Some punishment.

It's a good question and a very complex issue with no perfect answer. You would ideally introduce a 51 percent fan ownership ratio at the same time. A football trust set up by the government to take control of every club, with future profits to repay it? You'd then allow outside investment for the 49% with strict guildelines on who can buy.

Unfortunately though the Glazers, FSG and Kroenke are going to walk away with billions in profit whatever. The mistake was made when clubs floated and the FA allowed the owners to pass the fit and proper test. In business terms these owners have made the deal of the century. Let's hope they decide now is the time to take their profits and go.

 

[4LEX]

I suspect the announcement was made at that time to capture the markets in the US and Asia. The European Super League was never intended for the European market.

True. Made in America for the Chinese with European clubs the toys.

 

[SaintHacker]

Looking at faceache plenty of Liverpool supporters accepting the apology of the owner, especially if he dips into his sky rocket and buys them Mbappe or similar. The fickleness of football fans eh??

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Looking at faceache plenty of Liverpool supporters accepting the apology of the owner, especially if he dips into his sky rocket and buys them Mbappe or similar. The fickleness of football fans eh??

Welcome to modern football

The same fans demanding money spent are the same ones up in arms

It’s the state of the game now and it’s gradually getting worse each year - the reactions around transfer Windows are embarrassing at times , each fan demanding their club buys x y and z and then complaining how the owners get the money to buy x y and z

There are a lot of issues within the sport and this super league was just the tip

 

[fundy]

It's a good question and a very complex issue with no perfect answer. You would ideally introduce a 51 percent fan ownership ratio at the same time. A football trust set up by the government to take control of every club, with future profits to repay it? You'd then allow outside investment for the 49% with strict guildelines on who can buy.

Unfortunately though the Glazers, FSG and Kroenke are going to walk away with billions in profit whatever. The mistake was made when clubs floated and the FA allowed the owners to pass the fit and proper test. In business terms these owners have made the deal of the century. Let's hope they decide now is the time to take their profits and go.

I keep hearing the 51% model as the way to go, especially this week. Brought in 22 years ago in Germany and Bayern Munich will have soon won 17 of the 22 league titles since including the last 9, along with several established clubs having gone to the wall

Is it really that wonderful if its creating one dominant force whose domination seems to increase year on year and other clubs effectively being feeder clubs to it as it has the ability to create more revenue becomes self fulfilling and make it harder and harder for other clubs to challenge it

 

[road2ruin]

I keep hearing the 51% model as the way to go, especially this week.

I was listening to the QPR chairman this morning and he made the point is that when fans go on about the 51% model it is with a complete lack of understanding when it comes to clubs finances. He was saying that once the club have used gate money to cover wages and other costs there is the deficit that has to be made up. He asked where the fans thought this money was going to be coming from as it's usually the owners providing it. I apprecaite that people will argue that it might make the game most sustainable and possibly it will in the very long term but in the short term you cannot just put this scheme in place without clubs folding all over the shop.

 

[SaintHacker]

This post isnt aimed at anyone on here, its a generalisation before anyone takes big offence.
As a fan of a 'small club' its massively disheartening to watch your club systematically taken apart every transfer window by the 'big' clubs bullying their way through waving ridiculous sums of money to tempt players/managers away, safe in the knowledge they are untouchable even when they blatantly break rules to get their target. Every time it happens we have to put up with 'fans'of these clubs coming on our message boards and facebook groups, lording it over us bragging how big they are and how they'll just take who they want, because they can. Its hard to feel any sympathy for these fans at the moment, even though the whole of football community has come together in solidarity with them. Hopefully when the dust has settled they might remember this and show the smaller clubs a bit more respect and humility. I'm probably hoping for too much i know...

 

[fundy]

This post isnt aimed at anyone on here, its a generalisation before anyone takes big offence.
As a fan of a 'small club' its massively disheartening to watch your club systematically taken apart every transfer window by the 'big' clubs bullying their way through waving ridiculous sums of money to tempt players/managers away, safe in the knowledge they are untouchable even when they blatantly break rules to get their target. Every time it happens we have to put up with 'fans'of these clubs coming on our message boards and facebook groups, lording it over us bragging how big they are and how they'll just take who they want, because they can. Its hard to feel any sympathy for these fans at the moment, even though the whole of football community has come together in solidarity with them. Hopefully when the dust has settled they might remember this and show the smaller clubs a bit more respect and humility. I'm probably hoping for too much i know...

Great post apart from the lie in the first line Paul

 

[Deleted member 15344]

This post isnt aimed at anyone on here, its a generalisation before anyone takes big offence.
As a fan of a 'small club' its massively disheartening to watch your club systematically taken apart every transfer window by the 'big' clubs bullying their way through waving ridiculous sums of money to tempt players/managers away, safe in the knowledge they are untouchable even when they blatantly break rules to get their target. Every time it happens we have to put up with 'fans'of these clubs coming on our message boards and facebook groups, lording it over us bragging how big they are and how they'll just take who they want, because they can. Its hard to feel any sympathy for these fans at the moment, even though the whole of football community has come together in solidarity with them. Hopefully when the dust has settled they might remember this and show the smaller clubs a bit more respect and humility. I'm probably hoping for too much i know...

Being honest even in the Prem we aren’t safe from the same level of bullying from certain clubs abroad

I think words like respect and humility went out the window in football a long time ago ?

 

[4LEX]

I keep hearing the 51% model as the way to go, especially this week. Brought in 22 years ago in Germany and Bayern Munich will have soon won 17 of the 22 league titles since including the last 9, along with several established clubs having gone to the wall

Is it really that wonderful if its creating one dominant force whose domination seems to increase year on year and other clubs effectively being feeder clubs to it as it has the ability to create more revenue becomes self fulfilling and make it harder and harder for other clubs to challenge it

It's not perfect but nothing ever will be. It would be a lot better than the current situation for sure.

Serie A doesn't have the 51% model and Juve have won 7/8 of the last titles in a row. Dortmund have also made the mistake of selling their best players to Bayern over the years which has contributed to Bayern's domination more than anything.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Being honest even in the Prem we aren’t safe from the same level of bullying from certain clubs abroad

I think words like respect and humility went out the window in football a long time ago ?

I guess Southampton should count themselves lucky then if they’re not alone.

 

[pokerjoke]

This post isnt aimed at anyone on here, its a generalisation before anyone takes big offence.
As a fan of a 'small club' its massively disheartening to watch your club systematically taken apart every transfer window by the 'big' clubs bullying their way through waving ridiculous sums of money to tempt players/managers away, safe in the knowledge they are untouchable even when they blatantly break rules to get their target. Every time it happens we have to put up with 'fans'of these clubs coming on our message boards and facebook groups, lording it over us bragging how big they are and how they'll just take who they want, because they can. Its hard to feel any sympathy for these fans at the moment, even though the whole of football community has come together in solidarity with them. Hopefully when the dust has settled they might remember this and show the smaller clubs a bit more respect and humility. I'm probably hoping for too much i know...

With the amount of money in the game now unfortunately this won’t change.
One thing I would say although you would know much better than me being a Southampton supporter is it has helped you stay in the p/l a lot longer than you would have if they had never bought your big players.