Dropped ball

[Titanic]

I accept that, but as I have said, he didn't know whether it was lost in the penalty area or whether it had cleared it and was obscured by the reeds (which was the case at it turned out).
He could have gone forward and either himself or his teammates could have established that before any ball was dropped

The difference is simple when it comes to a provisional and what to do when the ball is lost in the woods and in a penalty area.

When you hit a ball in to the woods and it is lost your only option (if a provisional has not been played) is to go back to where you last hit from and play another. Hence the allowable action of playing a provisional ball to save time.

If you hit a ball in to a penalty area (yellow posts) one of your options is going back on the point where it crossed as far as you like so there is no real need for time saving.

Rule 18.3a/1 says a provisional ball may be played when the ball "might" be lost in a penalty area.

 

[nickjdavis]

I accept that, but as I have said, he didn't know whether it was lost in the penalty area or whether it had cleared it and was obscured by the reeds (which was the case at it turned out).
He could have gone forward and either himself or his teammates could have established that before any ball was dropped

Rule 18.3a/1 says a provisional ball may be played when the ball "might" be lost in a penalty area.

Thats not the full sentence though, and by missing out the rest of the clause you have twisted the rule to say something that it does not. The full clause is...

When a ball might be lost in a penalty area but also might be lost somewhere else on the course.

So the conditions of the entire clause must be met for it to be valid to play a provisional. If the area on the far side of the penalty area was bare low cut grass and if the ball had cleared would be easily found, then there was no possibility of the ball being lost outside of the penalty area...so a provisional would not have been appropriate.

 

[jim8flog]

I accept that, but as I have said, he didn't know whether it was lost in the penalty area or whether it had cleared it and was obscured by the reeds (which was the case at it turned out).
He could have gone forward and either himself or his teammates could have established that before any ball was dropped

Rule 18.3a/1 says a provisional ball may be played when the ball "might" be lost in a penalty area.

as per nickjdavis's post. I agree with his comments about rules need to be read in their entirety.

In your OP the player was just having the other side of the penalty area checked to see if the ball had cleared it. From what you have described it was either in the penalty area or it was not, there is no mention of the ball possibly being lost outside of the penalty area.

 

[Baldy Bouncer]

This thread still needs to be moved to the Rules section of the Forum though.

 

[Titanic]

Sorry people, I am really not trying to "twist" anything. I just quoted the part of the rule which I thought might apply in this instance. The particular penalty area in question is 200 yards away and is flanked by large irregular shaped stones. Quite often a players ball hits these on the far side and either comes back into the pond and we see a splash (no argument there) or it drops back down in all the reeds in which case we don't see a splash or it ricochets high in the air in any direction and can end up in the trees flanking the fairway.
The hole concerned is the 18th and is into a low sun at this time of year which compounds the problem of knowing if the ball finished within the penalty area or not - so I'm afraid it can often be lost despite not being in the hazard. I probably should have given all this detail previously.

The original point was that knowing none of these things, he walked forward and dropped a ball rather than playing a provisional from the tee (which our competitions and handicap secretary insists we do at our club) or going forward to see if the original could be found. The playing partners then found his original so he picked up the dropped ball and carried on with the first ball. I am only trying to determine whether he should have waited before dropping the second ball which I thought made it in play - if not, fair enough.

If I am wrong, that is fine, I just want to know what is correct. Thanks for your responses.

 

[rulefan]

Sorry people, I am really not trying to "twist" anything. I just quoted the part of the rule which I thought might apply in this instance. The particular penalty area in question is 200 yards away and is flanked by large irregular shaped stones. Quite often a players ball hits these on the far side and either comes back into the pond and we see a splash (no argument there) or it drops back down in all the reeds in which case we don't see a splash or it ricochets high in the air in any direction and can end up in the trees flanking the fairway.
The hole concerned is the 18th and is into a low sun at this time of year which compounds the problem of knowing if the ball finished within the penalty area or not - so I'm afraid it can often be lost despite not being in the hazard. I probably should have given all this detail previously.

The original point was that knowing none of these things, he walked forward and dropped a ball rather than playing a provisional from the tee (which our competitions and handicap secretary insists we do at our club) or going forward to see if the original could be found. The playing partners then found his original so he picked up the dropped ball and carried on with the first ball. I am only trying to determine whether he should have waited before dropping the second ball which I thought made it in play - if not, fair enough.

If I am wrong, that is fine, I just want to know what is correct. Thanks for your responses.

I think your original question had been misunderstood and diverted into an issue about provisional balls.

I responded in #11 and a couple of other posts queried the word intent. Given that there is no mention of the player having to advise anyone else of their intent, I am still of the opinion that 14.4 applies unless someone can produce an authoritative answer.

 

[nickjdavis]

The original point was that knowing none of these things, he walked forward and dropped a ball rather than playing a provisional from the tee (which our competitions and handicap secretary insists we do at our club) or going forward to see if the original could be found. The playing partners then found his original so he picked up the dropped ball and carried on with the first ball. I am only trying to determine whether he should have waited before dropping the second ball which I thought made it in play - if not, fair enough.

If I am wrong, that is fine, I just want to know what is correct. Thanks for your responses.

I didnt mean you were deliberately twisting things....just that by only quoting part of the clause you were inadvertently twisting things.

In my opinion the player did the right thing. A provisional was not relevant in the case that was originally described. However...if the ball riccocheted off the stones which you now tell us about, and potentially could end up in the trees which we are now aware of, then there is the potential for the ball to be lost outside the penalty area....in which case a provisional would have been appropriate.

The initial responses did add a confusion regarding provisionals that was not relevant to the original question.

I was also, like you, of the opinion that once a ball was dropped, it was in play. However, RuleFans post #11 clarified that it was only in play if it was the players "intent" to play it. In the case you describe, the player only intended to play it if their original ball was not found outside the penalty area (the assumption then being that it was in the penalty area).

 

[jim8flog]

The original point was that knowing none of these things, he walked forward and dropped a ball rather than playing a provisional from the tee (which our competitions and handicap secretary insists we do at our club) or going forward to see if the original could be found.

I have played at one other club at which they have this rule (specificly for a water penalty area) but I do question if such a LR has been sanctioned by the R&A.

A club is not permitted to have a LR which changes a Rule of Golf or is not in the allowable Local Rules (Committee procedures section 8) unless they have been given special permission from the R&A.