Dropped ball

Titanic

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Yesterday I witnessed the following.
A player playing a team event in the group in front of me thought his ball had not cleared the water hazard half way up the fairway (a large pond).
He walked forward, dropped a 2nd ball before the pond, then waited for his playing partners to go round the pond to look for his original ball which they then found on the far shore. He then picked his second ball up and continued the hole with his original ball. Was he correct to do this?
I thought the act of dropping the 2nd ball meant that it then became the ball in play but was told rule 14 may apply as he had not actually played the 2nd ball.
 

slicer79

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Not 100% sure but thought it was ok to play a ball up to the point where original may be lost. In terms of pace of play rather than go up, not find it and then have to return back to other side to play. Particularly in the case of a very big hazzard
 

Titanic

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Not 100% sure but thought it was ok to play a ball up to the point where original may be lost. In terms of pace of play rather than go up, not find it and then have to return back to other side to play. Particularly in the case of a very big hazzard

Thanks for your reply.
Yes, you can play a "provisional" ball until it passes the lost point of the original, but he should have first established whether the first ball was lost in the hazard or whether it was playable. If lost, then drop a ball at point of entry into the hazard or in a drop zone if there is one and play that. Obviously, if he could play the original, a second ball should not have come into the equation.
I still feel that by dropping the 2nd ball, that became the ball in play.
 

jim8flog

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I believe this would apply in this situation as it is is similar as the provisional ball rule quoted

Interpretation
18.3c(1)/1

He or she decides the provisional ball is unplayable and drops it under Rule 19.2c. Before playing the dropped ball, the player’s original ball is found by a spectator within three minutes of when the player started the search.

In this case, the original ball remained the ball in play because it was found within three minutes of beginning the search and the player had not made a stroke at the provisional ball from a spot nearer the hole than where the original ball was estimated to be.
 

Titanic

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I believe this would apply in this situation as it is is similar as the provisional ball rule quoted

Interpretation
18.3c(1)/1

He or she decides the provisional ball is unplayable and drops it under Rule 19.2c. Before playing the dropped ball, the player’s original ball is found by a spectator within three minutes of when the player started the search.

In this case, the original ball remained the ball in play because it was found within three minutes of beginning the search and the player had not made a stroke at the provisional ball from a spot nearer the hole than where the original ball was estimated to be.

Thank you. Yes, I agree that is the rule for a provisional ball, but a provisional ball was not played in this instance, hence the query - not sure if the same applies.
 

jim8flog

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Thank you. Yes, I agree that is the rule for a provisional ball, but a provisional ball was not played in this instance, hence the query - not sure if the same applies.

Under the old rules when there was no specific rule in the book you could use the nearest ruling 'in equity' which I feel would apply in this case.
 

nickjdavis

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Under the old rules when there was no specific rule in the book you could use the nearest ruling 'in equity' which I feel would apply in this case.

But there is a specific rule that applies to the scenario....

17.1c Relief for Ball Not Found but in Penalty Area
If a player’s ball has not been found and it is known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area:
  • The player may take penalty relief under Rule 17.1d or 17.2.
  • Once the player puts another ball in play to take relief in this way:
    • The original ball is no longer in play and must not be played.
    • This is true even if it is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 6.3b).
But if it is not known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area and the ball is lost, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief under Rule 18.2.


The player simply dropped a ball in the belief that his ball was probably (to be honest there doesnt seem to be any KoVC going on here!!) lost in the penalty area....by dropping the ball it becomes "in-play". It is irrelevant that the original ball was then found on the course within three minutes as per the final bullet point.
 

jim8flog

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But there is a specific rule that applies to the scenario....

17.1c Relief for Ball Not Found but in Penalty Area
If a player’s ball has not been found and it is known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area:
  • The player may take penalty relief under Rule 17.1d or 17.2.
  • Once the player puts another ball in play to take relief in this way:
    • The original ball is no longer in play and must not be played.
    • This is true even if it is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 6.3b).
But if it is not known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area and the ball is lost, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief under Rule 18.2.


The player simply dropped a ball in the belief that his ball was probably (to be honest there doesnt seem to be any KoVC going on here!!) lost in the penalty area....by dropping the ball it becomes "in-play". It is irrelevant that the original ball was then found on the course within three minutes as per the final bullet point.

Thanks

I do agree with with your comment about KoVC.

Suggests the player should wait before dropping another ball.
 

rulefan

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The player simply dropped a ball in the belief that his ball was probably (to be honest there doesnt seem to be any KoVC going on here!!) lost in the penalty area....by dropping the ball it becomes "in-play". It is irrelevant that the original ball was then found on the course within three minutes as per the final bullet point.

14.4
The player has a ball in play again only when he or she:
Replaces, drops or places the original ball or another ball on the course with the intent for that ball to be in play.
 

r0wly86

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So the intent is only for that ball to be in play when he is signalled that the ball is not on the other side does that fail the rule?

I would agree with that, maybe a but premature on the drop, but if they did not intend for that ball to be in play unless signalled then it is not in play
 
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Jigger

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I would interpret the dropping of the ball as an action of intent to play and it would therefore be in play. With regard to the first ball and whilst I can’t recall the actual rule, my understanding is that you cannot play a provisional if you think your first is in a penalty area.

Personally for me, it’s a pathetic situation and I would not stop anyone taking a provisional ball in that situation. We have similar issues on our course and going to check and then come back would add about 10mins to the hole. Whilst I’m all for rules being upheld in comps. This misdemeanour has no material impact on the outcome other than to speed up play.
 

Titanic

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As far as I am concerned, and please correct me if I'm being unfair, the right thing to do would have been this:- He was not sure whether the original tee shot cleared the hazard. He should therefore have played a provisional from the tee and then establish whether his first ball was in play.
If it was, play it- if it wasn't, then carry on with the provisional.
 

Jigger

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As far as I am concerned, and please correct me if I'm being unfair, the right thing to do would have been this:- He was not sure whether the original tee shot cleared the hazard. He should therefore have played a provisional from the tee and then establish whether his first ball was in play.
If it was, play it- if it wasn't, then carry on with the provisional.
That to me is the common sense approach to avoid slow play but don’t think the official rules agree.
 

jim8flog

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As far as I am concerned, and please correct me if I'm being unfair, the right thing to do would have been this:- He was not sure whether the original tee shot cleared the hazard. He should therefore have played a provisional from the tee and then establish whether his first ball was in play.
If it was, play it- if it wasn't, then carry on with the provisional.

By playing a provisional and then having to play that would actually disadvantage the player. Under penalty area rules the player gets a good choice of where to drop a ball. A provisional ball could go anywhere.
 

Tinkerman

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I think under 18.3a if he was aware that the only possible place the ball was lost was in the penalty area then he is not allowed to play a provisional from the tee, so he did the right thing by going up to play his next shot from the point of entry. If he'd played another ball from the tee it would have become the ball in play.
Going back to the original situation though, under 14.5 he was allowed to correct his mistake (when he dropped the ball) before playing the shot, which he did. So I think he applied the rules correctly, knowingly or not.
 

Titanic

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The only thing I can add to that is, that because of the large amount of reeds around the pond, he didn't know whether his ball was lost or not so I don't know if that changes anything.
If you hit a tee shot into trees that are still in bounds, you don't know whether you are going to find your ball, so you play a provisional from the tee.
He didn't know whether he was going to find his ball so the difference puzzles me but I will accept what you say. Thanks.
 

jim8flog

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The only thing I can add to that is, that because of the large amount of reeds around the pond, he didn't know whether his ball was lost or not so I don't know if that changes anything.
If you hit a tee shot into trees that are still in bounds, you don't know whether you are going to find your ball, so you play a provisional from the tee.
He didn't know whether he was going to find his ball so the difference puzzles me but I will accept what you say. Thanks.

The difference is simple when it comes to a provisional and what to do when the ball is lost in the woods and in a penalty area.

When you hit a ball in to the woods and it is lost your only option (if a provisional has not been played) is to go back to where you last hit from and play another. Hence the allowable action of playing a provisional ball to save time.

If you hit a ball in to a penalty area (yellow posts) one of your options is going back on the point where it crossed as far as you like so there is no real need for time saving.
 
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