Dog takes ball

[atticusfinch]

Rub of the green?

Rub of the green does not mean bad luck. It is a specific occurrence defined in the rules.

A "rub of the green" occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency (see Rule 19-1).

http://www.ruleshistory.com/misc.html#rub

 

[Colin L]

If a dog picks up a moving ball, I would consider that to be the deliberate action of an outside agency, quite different from the accidental deflection of the ball if it were simply to hit the unfortunate mutt. Anyway, in my view this is a matter of a moving ball coming to rest in or on an outside agency and 19-1a applies. A ball should be dropped as near as possible to where the ball came to rest in its fangs.

 

[Colin L]

Sorry to have been a bit confusing. I should have said that I might think of the dog's action being deliberate - a dog doing what a dog does. But Decision 19-1/6 references 19-1a and directs us to place the ball where it came to rest by the dog's picking it up. The inference is then that the Rules do not consider the dog's action to be deliberate which in turn makes me think that only human action can be taken to be deliberate.

 

[Matty]

If a dog picks up a moving ball, I would consider that to be the deliberate action of an outside agency, quite different from the accidental deflection of the ball if it were simply to hit the unfortunate mutt. Anyway, in my view this is a matter of a moving ball coming to rest in or on an outside agency and 19-1a applies. A ball should be dropped as near as possible to where the ball came to rest in its fangs.

Ah, the key word being accidentally in the 'rub of the green' quote. So, if instead of picking up the ball, it hit the dog (poor thing) and then ran out of bounds would that be different again?

 

[rulefan]

Ah, the key word being accidentally in the 'rub of the green' quote. So, if instead of picking up the ball, it hit the dog (poor thing) and then ran out of bounds would that be different again?

Yes. That would be a true 'rub of the green'.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

So just to be clear in my own mind. The dog picks up a moving ball and the player has to drop substitute (assuming the dog ran off with it) at the point he intercepted it rather than the perceived point it would come to rest. No penalty.

 

[Matty]

So just to be clear in my own mind. The dog picks up a moving ball and the player has to drop substitute (assuming the dog ran off with it) at the point he intercepted it rather than the perceived point it would come to rest. No penalty.

Back to rule 19-1, says if the ball is deliberately deflected or stopped by outside agency (and we are working on the assumption that the dog is outside agency and picking the ball is is a deliberate act) it goes on to say that on the green you place the ball where it would have been estimated to come to a stop and through the green it's dropped as near as possible unless it was OOB in which case it's rule 27-1. (I think, but I've been wrong on this before!)

 

[rulefan]

19-1/6

Ball Picked Up or Deflected by Dog on Putting Green After Stroke from Off Green

Q.A ball played from off the green was about a foot from the hole and still in motion when it was moved by a dog to a spot about ten feet from the hole. The ball was either deflected by the dog or the dog picked it up, ran with it and dropped it. What is the ruling?

A.If the ball was deflected, it would be played as it lay, without penalty, from the spot to which it was moved by the dog (Rule 19-1).

If the dog picked up the ball, the player should have placed the ball, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where the original ball was when the dog picked it up (Rule 19-1a).

19-1/7

Ball Picked Up or Deflected by Dog After Stroke on Putting Green

Q.A player makes a stroke on the putting green and, while the ball is still in motion, it is picked up and carried away, or is deflected, by a dog. What is the ruling?

A.A dog is an animate outside agency, which is any outside agency capable of voluntary movement. Under Rule 19-1b, when a ball has been deflected or stopped by an animate outside agency (except a worm, insect or the like) and the stroke was made on the putting green, the stroke is canceled and the ball must be replaced and replayed. If the ball is not immediately recoverable another ball may be substituted. (Revised)

 

[Colin L]

Back to rule 19-1, says if the ball is deliberately deflected or stopped by outside agency (and we are working on the assumption that the dog is outside agency and picking the ball is is a deliberate act) it goes on to say that on the green you place the ball where it would have been estimated to come to a stop and through the green it's dropped as near as possible unless it was OOB in which case it's rule 27-1. (I think, but I've been wrong on this before!)

I think your assumption about "our" assumption is incorrect. No question that the dog is an outside agency, but as I said above, Decision 19-1/6 refers us to Rule 19-1a and by telling us that if the ball is picked up by the dog it should be placed where it was originally taken, it shows that the dog's action is not considered to be deliberate. Apologies if my personal thought that I might consider the dog's action to be deliberate has misled. It is of no relevance to the Rules what I might think! The Decision tells me what I have to think as far as golfing dogs are concerned. Rulefan has helpfully quoted the whole Decision plus the related 19-1/7. I hope that will clarify for you.

[NB The Decision says the ball is to be placed because in the illustration it is picked up on the putting green. If it were picked up through the green it would be dropped.]

 

[cliveb]

No question that the dog is an outside agency, but as I said above, Decision 19-1/6 refers us to Rule 19-1a and by telling us that if the ball is picked up by the dog it should be placed where it was originally taken, it shows that the dog's action is not considered to be deliberate.

With all due respect (and I know you are a rules expert), I don't see how your conclusions about deliberate v accidental match what decision 19-1/6 says. That decision explicitly makes a distinction between the ball being deflected (play it as it lies) and the ball being picked up (replace it where is was).

Rule 19-1 clearly states that a ball that is accidentally deflected should be played as it lies (as per deflection off the dog in the decision), and note (a) states that a ball which has been deliberately deflected should be replaced/dropped (as per being picked up by the dog in the decision).

So my reading of decision 19-1/6 implies that the dog picking up the ball is considered to be deliberate.

 

[pogle]

If the ball is deliberately lifted or deflected, then the note to rule 19-1 applies. In this case, the spot where the ball would have come to rest had it not been lifted or deflected must be estimated and the ball dropped or placed in that position.

If the ball is accidentally deflected by an outside agency, then it is played from where it comes to lie; if the ball is accidentally lifted (which both Colin and I think is a contradiction -apologies if I've put words in Colin's mouth - ), then the ball is dropped or placed at the spot from where it was lifted.

As Decision 19-1/6 says that the ball shall be dropped / placed from where it was lifted, then the rules bodies clearly feel that the dog lifting the ball was accidental, otherwise the result would have been to estimate where it would have come to rest and drop there.

 

[cliveb]

Ah - I think the penny has dropped.
Rule 19-1a, with relevant words highlighted:

If a player's ball in motion after a stroke other than on the putting green comes to rest in or on any moving or animate outside agency, the ball must through the green or in a hazard be dropped, or on the putting green be placed, as near as possible to the spot directly under the place where the ball came to rest in or on the outside agency, but not nearer the hole ...

The words that were confusing me were "comes to rest". I had presumed that the ball did not come to rest until the dog dropped it. But since the rule talks about "coming to rest in a moving animate object", I now realise that the point at which the dog picks up the ball is deemed to be the point at which it "came to rest" (even though in a non-golfing sense it's still moving, because the dog is moving).

So I now see that the dog picking up the ball is deemed to be accidental, and that the ball came to rest in a moving animate object at the point where it was picked up. My apologies to Colin for questioning his conclusions - which we all know are usually spot-on.

 

[rulefan]

Ah - I think the penny has dropped.
Rule 19-1a, with relevant words highlighted:

The words that were confusing me were "comes to rest". I had presumed that the ball did not come to rest until the dog dropped it. But since the rule talks about "coming to rest in a moving animate object", I now realise that the point at which the dog picks up the ball is deemed to be the point at which it "came to rest" (even though in a non-golfing sense it's still moving, because the dog is moving).

So I now see that the dog picking up the ball is deemed to be accidental, and that the ball came to rest in a moving animate object at the point where it was picked up. My apologies to Colin for questioning his conclusions - which we all know are usually spot-on.

Clive
Although what you say is correct in its reasoning, the definitive words are in the final sentence of the decision, as the OP was about a dog.
If the dog picked up the ball, the player should ..............

Of course in equity it would apply to any animate outside agency (including a Fellow Competitor).

 

[atticusfinch]

If a dog picks up a moving ball, I would consider that to be the deliberate action of an outside agency, quite different from the accidental deflection of the ball if it were simply to hit the unfortunate mutt. Anyway, in my view this is a matter of a moving ball coming to rest in or on an outside agency and 19-1a applies. A ball should be dropped as near as possible to where the ball came to rest in its fangs.

All I was saying is the idea of rub is not bad luck as implied in the post I responded to. I agree with your post...never didn't.

 

[Colin L]

I didn't actually have your posting in mind when I wrote that and know you were just countering the common idea that a rub of the green is bad luck.

 

[atticusfinch]

I didn't actually have your posting in mind when I wrote that and know you were just countering the common idea that a rub of the green is bad luck.

Holy cow!A ROG love fest!:cheers:

 

[ColchesterFC]

German dog = blame Brexit e.g. you get to make your own rules and keep your cash.

This made me chuckle probably more than it should have but this is one of the best posts I've seen on the forum. :thup: