Identifying A Ball When I’d rather not

[Troymcclure]

If I see a ball when searching I have to check if it’s mine, even if it’s in a place I’d rather take my provisional/walk back. Correct?

So what if my PP sees one. Or a FC. Or a passer-by walking his dog.

Is it the case that if ‘anyone’ finds a ball during a search, I’m obliged to identify it?

I’ve often asked people not to search anywhere I’d likely prefer not to find it but just wondered if this request was unnecessary?

 

[DickInShorts]

In that situation I make it clear my ‘provisional’ is NOT a provisional- so if somebody body finds it I can put it back in my bag to lose another day.

If you have declared it as a Provisional then your FC has the right to search for it. If they find it you can declare it unplayable and walk back to where you played that ball from. Any provisional ball ceases to be in play as soon as the original is found.

 

[Troymcclure]

Thanks Dick but I don’t think I made my question clear enough.

I’m talking about people helping me. I want to look and am grateful for the help.

This is a scenario: I hit into bushes, let’s say off the tee for example. I play a provisional up the middle. Me and others search for original. I only look in places where I think I can improve on my my provisional, be it with 2 shots or a drop and a shot.

So I want to search. And I’m grateful of any help. But if I’m unfortunate enough to spot a ball out the corner of my eye in an awful spot I’m obliged to identify (am I?) and if mine, it becomes the ball in play which could be worse than taking the provisional in the first place. And I prefer not to walk back and play another. Tough luck on me. Walk back or hack my way out like Kevin Na that time.

But what if someone else spots a ball in that awful spot and tells me they’ve found a ball - not to be mean/competitive but trying to help - am I obliged to identify it?

Or can I say ignore it and continue searching in more favourable spots until my search time expires and am forced to play the provisional?

 

[nickjdavis]

In that situation I make it clear my ‘provisional’ is NOT a provisional- so if somebody body finds it I can put it back in my bag to lose another day.

You cannot change your mind about the status of the provisional ball half way down the fairway, it only becomes the ball in play when your original ball is lost (either 3 minutes search time elapsed or you make a stroke at the provisional ball).

 

[Orikoru]

Thanks Dick but I don’t think I made my question clear enough.

I’m talking about people helping me. I want to look and am grateful for the help.

This is a scenario: I hit into bushes, let’s say off the tee for example. I play a provisional up the middle. Me and others search for original. I only look in places where I think I can improve on my my provisional, be it with 2 shots or a drop and a shot.

So I want to search. And I’m grateful of any help. But if I’m unfortunate enough to spot a ball out the corner of my eye in an awful spot I’m obliged to identify (am I?) and if mine, it becomes the ball in play which could be worse than taking the provisional in the first place. And I prefer not to walk back and play another. Tough luck on me. Walk back or hack my way out like Kevin Na that time.

But what if someone else spots a ball in that awful spot and tells me they’ve found a ball - not to be mean/competitive but trying to help - am I obliged to identify it?

Or can I say ignore it and continue searching in more favourable spots until my search time expires and am forced to play the provisional?

I think them finding your ball and you finding your ball amounts to the same, pretty much. If you don't try and identify it you're effectively cheating? If there's any danger that you won't like what you find then you're better off not looking for it at all.

 

[nickjdavis]

Thanks Dick but I don’t think I made my question clear enough.

I’m talking about people helping me. I want to look and am grateful for the help.

This is a scenario: I hit into bushes, let’s say off the tee for example. I play a provisional up the middle. Me and others search for original. I only look in places where I think I can improve on my my provisional, be it with 2 shots or a drop and a shot.

So I want to search. And I’m grateful of any help. But if I’m unfortunate enough to spot a ball out the corner of my eye in an awful spot I’m obliged to identify (am I?) and if mine, it becomes the ball in play which could be worse than taking the provisional in the first place. And I prefer not to walk back and play another. Tough luck on me. Walk back or hack my way out like Kevin Na that time.

But what if someone else spots a ball in that awful spot and tells me they’ve found a ball - not to be mean/competitive but trying to help - am I obliged to identify it?

Or can I say ignore it and continue searching in more favourable spots until my search time expires and am forced to play the provisional?

You do not have to wait for the 3minutes to expire before going to play your provisional. If you think your ball is lost in an area where you would rather not find it you can tell your fellow players not to search for it and just walk up to your provisional and play it. However, if they (or you) find a ball before you get to make a stroke at your provisional, you are obliged to go and identify it.

 

[HampshireHog]

If you refused to identify a ball having hit a provisional and actively searching for the ball I’m calling that cheating.

If you choose not to search for a ball after hitting a provisional it’s still pretty poor IMO.

Better to just play another ball making it clear it is not a provisional.

 

[Troymcclure]

I think them finding your ball and you finding your ball amounts to the same, pretty much. If you don't try and identify it you're effectively cheating? If there's any danger that you won't like what you find then you're better off not looking for it at all.

Yes that's what I've always thought, and done. I've only just recently had pause for thought on it as a mate marches deep into the jungle, despite my protestations, and occasionally finds my ball where I'd prefer he hadn't. He's not being mean/competitive. He has delusions of his own ability and looks where the thinks "he" could escape from And that's what made me think about PP's, FC's, dog walkers etc. Is it "anyone"?. Well meaning dog walker shouts out there's a ball over here deep in the jungle. Same scenario as a PP?

 

[Troymcclure]

You do not have to wait for the 3minutes to expire before going to play your provisional. If you think your ball is lost in an area where you would rather not find it you can tell your fellow players not to search for it and just walk up to your provisional and play it. However, if they (or you) find a ball before you get to make a stroke at your provisional, you are obliged to go and identify it.

Yes I know that thanks. I'm talking about a scenario where it's worth me searching as it could be playable but someone searches deeper where it probably isn't.

 

[nickjdavis]

If you refused to identify a ball having hit a provisional and actively searching for the ball I’m calling that cheating.

If you choose not to search for a ball after hitting a provisional it’s still pretty poor IMO.

.

Dont disagree with the first comment.

The second however...the player is entitled to make a judgement as to whether he is likely to be better off playing his provisional or finding his original ball.

 

[nickjdavis]

Yes I know that thanks. I'm talking about a scenario where it's worth me searching as it could be playable but someone searches deeper where it probably isn't.

Same thing effectively applies....you can have a brief search in an area that might give you a favourable result if the ball is found, and equally you can choose not to search in the deep mire if you don't want to find it in there. You can tell your fellow players not to search for it. But if they, thinking they are helping, do find a ball in the deep mire then yes....you are obliged to identify it.

 

[Troymcclure]

You can tell your fellow players not to search for it. But if they, thinking they are helping, do find a ball in the deep mire then yes....you are obliged to identify it.

That's the answer I was looking for thanks. Well partly. What about another golfer (not in same comp - let's say I'm playing an individual matchplay) - or even non-golfer finding a ball and calling out. Same thing? I have to identify?

 

[Foxholer]

You cannot change your mind about the status of the provisional ball half way down the fairway, it only becomes the ball in play when your original ball is lost (either 3 minutes search time elapsed or you make a stroke at the provisional ball).

This!

You do not have to wait for the 3minutes to expire before going to play your provisional. If you think your ball is lost in an area where you would rather not find it you can tell your fellow players not to search for it and just walk up to your provisional and play it. However, if they (or you) find a ball before you get to make a stroke at your provisional, you are obliged to go and identify it.

And this!

As for the 'deluded' PP/FC...I would be seiously unhappy if he continued to search after having been told to 'not continue'!

 

[nickjdavis]

That's the answer I was looking for thanks. Well partly. What about another golfer (not in same comp - let's say I'm playing an individual matchplay) - or even non-golfer finding a ball and calling out. Same thing? I have to identify?

Yes....anybody....if someone points out a ball in an area where it is possible that your ball may have gone then you need to identify it....even if a dog runs out from the undergrowth (where your ball might have been) with a ball in its mouth and drops it at your feet...you need to identify it (though getting the dog to show you where it originally lay if it turns out to be yours might be an issue ).

 

[nickjdavis]

As for the 'deluded' PP/FC...I would be seiously unhappy if he continued to search after having been told to 'not continue'!

Absolutely. Though if it was an opponent in matchplay, and it was in his interests to find your original ball, then his actions would be understandable.

 

[doublebogey7]

As a number of people have said, no matter who found the ball the player must identify it. See extract from the RoG below.

Rule 18.2 Ball Lost or Out of Bounds: Stroke-and-Distance Relief Must Be Taken

a. When Ball Is Lost or Out of Bounds

(1) When Ball Is Lost. A ball is lost if not found in three minutes after the player or his or her caddie begins to search for it.
If a ball is found in that time but it is uncertain whether it is the player’s ball:

• The player must promptly attempt to identify the ball (see Rule 7.2) and is allowed a reasonable time to do so, even if that happens after the three-minute search time has ended.

 

[Swango1980]

If you refused to identify a ball having hit a provisional and actively searching for the ball I’m calling that cheating.

If you choose not to search for a ball after hitting a provisional it’s still pretty poor IMO.

Better to just play another ball making it clear it is not a provisional.

Absolutely nothing wrong with this. If there was, there would be a ruling to say a player MUST search for their original after hitting a provisional. A player may hit a provisional in the hop of finding the original in a playable area. However, if they start their search, and realise it does not look to have ended up in a playable area, they have absolutely no requirement to search for their ball in the surrounding jungle. In terms of course / game management, the better call would usually be to stop looking.

Of course, that is not to say everyone has to stop looking. They could ask them to stop looking, but if someone else still happens to find it by chance, or an opponent in match play decides to continue searching anyway, then the player has to identify it (going back to the original question, and what has already been answered anyway)

 

[Maninblack4612]

The provisional ball rule isn't 100% fair & is there purely for convenience. If your ball may be lost or unplayable you shouldn't know where the replayed ball will go before you decide to abandon the first. This is why you can't play a provisional for a ball found to be unplayable - because it gives you a choice.

It is in the spirit of the game to make a genuine 3 minute search for a lost ball. Deciding not to look when you see how bad a lie it might be in gives you an advantage you wouldn't have had if the provisional ball rule didn't exist (However, I don't know anyone who doesn't do this). Without a provisional ball in play, If you found it in an impossible lie you'd be faced with choosing pick & drop or stroke & distance without knowing where the next shot would go. With a provisional ball sitting in the middle of the fairway the decision is simple.

In the light of the above, refusing to identify your ball just because you don't fancy playing it is plain cheating.

 

[Swango1980]

The provisional ball rule isn't 100% fair & is there purely for convenience. If your ball may be lost or unplayable you shouldn't know where the replayed ball will go before you decide to abandon the first. This is why you can't play a provisional for a ball found to be unplayable - because it gives you a choice.

It is in the spirit of the game to make a genuine 3 minute search for a lost ball. Deciding not to look when you see how bad a lie it might be in gives you an advantage you wouldn't have had if the provisional ball rule didn't exist (However, I don't know anyone who doesn't do this). Without a provisional ball in play, If you found it in an impossible lie you'd be faced with choosing pick & drop or stroke & distance without knowing where the next shot would go. With a provisional ball sitting in the middle of the fairway the decision is simple.

In the light of the above, refusing to identify your ball just because you don't fancy playing it is plain cheating.

Can you tell me where "The Spirit of the Game" Rule Book can be found? I'd be interested to read it. Then, if I ever play with somebody who decides NOT to look for their original after playing a provisional, I can quote them the appropriate reference from the "Spirit of the Rules" (presumably published by the R&A). Perhaps there is no penalty if they refuse, but at least I can bad mouth them and ruin their reputation by telling other members they disobeyed the Spirit of the Rules by not searching, and to look out for them in the future for their shady antics

 

[Maninblack4612]

Can you tell me where "The Spirit of the Game" Rule Book can be found? I'd be interested to read it. Then, if I ever play with somebody who decides NOT to look for their original after playing a provisional, I can quote them the appropriate reference from the "Spirit of the Rules" (presumably published by the R&A). Perhaps there is no penalty if they refuse, but at least I can bad mouth them and ruin their reputation by telling other members they disobeyed the Spirit of the Rules by not searching, and to look out for them in the future for their shady antics

Like holy spirit it's there, you just can't see it. I did say that nobody ever did this. What I found hard to explain is that the provisional ball rule gives you a choice you shouldn't have. Perhaps spirit of the game is the wrong term, I just can't think of an alternative. I think the original provisional ball rule assumed you'd look for the ball for the full 3/5 minutes.