Can you declareca ball lost?

[Swinglowandslow]

Can you declare a ball lost? If so, when?

I believe you cannot hit a ball, and not liking where it has finished up, declare it lost, or hit a provisional and then declaring the original lost very soon afterwards.
To explain.
Suppose you have a par 3 hole surrounded by bunkers, and big bushes on the left side of the green. Difficult hole for seniors to get on in 1. Try it and you'll likely be in the bunker. You probably have such a hole on your course.

It could happen that a player going for the green, pulls it and it trickles into the edge of the bushes.
It may just trickle into the bushes, or may have gone a fair way in ,far enough not to be found. But you are too far away to see which.
From where it was likely to be , if it trickled in , an "unplayable ". decision would likely leave only the 3rd option of ...play again from original spot.
Two club lengths etc would leave no meaningful swing at the ball, still in the bushes edge.
As far back on Line not on ,because of the massive bushes.

So if a player took a provisional,then if the original was found he would have to take an "unplayable ". That could mean going all the way back to the tee.
So, the dilemma!
The alternative is , to my mind, while on the tee, to declare the ball unplayable and thus take the 3rd option and hit again.
If you don't want to walk back to the tee.

I don't believe that a player could hit a provisional and then declare the first ball lost, without looking for it, , thus continuing with the provisional.
My reasoning is that if a player was allowed to do that, it is letting him have his cake and eat it.
Because, if he hits a lousy "provisional", he might not declare the first lost in the hope that he might find it, (even have some some sort of shot -the first option.I did say it just trickled in. ) This means that if he finds it , he gets another chance to hit a good one off the tee.
Of course, if he hits a cracker of a provisional then declaring the first one lost is clearly a good move.

My mate thinks a player can play a provisional, and then not look for the original, treating it as lost, risking that his playing partners don't look for it and find it!.

So, is a player obliged to make a (cursory ?) look for the ball?

 

[BubbaP]

? ?

 

[Neilds]

Just hit the 2nd without stating it is a provisional and it then becomes the ball in play.
It is your actions that make a ball lost, not your words

 

[salfordlad]

There's a lot of questions here. Here's some facts, reflect on them and then return if you have specific remaining questions.
1. It is not possible to "declare" a ball lost. It gets to that status only by specific things occurring - see the definition of "lost".
2. You can always play again, stroke and distance. Do so and the original ball then ceases to have any continuing role, regardless of where it is or whether it is in a known position.
3. There is no requirement to search for your original ball. If you have played a provisional ball correctly, you may continue with it. But if anyone finds a ball that may be your original and your provisional has not yet become ball in play (see 18.3c(3)) you are obligated to identify if it is yours and, if so, continue with it.

 

[Crow]

You do not have to look for an original ball if playing a provisional, but if the original ball is found by anybody within the three minutes then the player must go and identify the ball and if it's their ball then they must continue play with that original ball.
Once the player has played from a point beyond where the original ball might be or the three minutes is up then the original ball is abandoned.

 

[salfordlad]

You do not have to look for an original ball if playing a provisional, but if the original ball is found by anybody within the three minutes then the player must go and identify the ball and if it's there ball then they must continue play with that original ball.
Once the player has passed the point where the provisional might be or the three minutes is up then the original ball is abandoned.

If the player, player's caddie or partner/partner's caddie have not commenced a search for the original ball, then the time clock has no role - it never commences.

 

[Crow]

If the player, player's caddie or partner/partner's caddie have not commenced a search for the original ball, then the time clock has no role - it never commences.

Interesting, so the ball is only "dead" when the player has played from a point closer to the hole than where the original ball might be?

(I've re-worded some of my original post as it was a bit mixed up!)

 

[bobmac]

Just hit the 2nd without stating it is a provisional and it then becomes the ball in play.
It is your actions that make a ball lost, not your words

You hit a ball into the trees and tee up another ball saying ''this ball is NOT a provisional''

 

[salfordlad]

Interesting, so the ball is only "dead" when the player has played from a point closer to the hole than where the original ball might be?

(I've re-worded some of my original post as it was a bit mixed up!)

I presume "dead" is a Crow technical term for no longer in play? Essentially the answer is yes, but other new information can also kill the original - eg, if found to be OOB.

 

[salfordlad]

You hit a ball into the trees and tee up another ball saying ''this ball is NOT a provisional''

Conventionally known as taking stroke and distance.

 

[bobmac]

Conventionally known as taking stroke and distance.

Which also takes the first ball out of play

 

[DickInShorts]

On several occasions I’ve stated clearly before I’ve hit a second ball that it is NOT a provisional as i knew that if I found my original I’d most likely have to play from the tee again

 

[salfordlad]

Which also takes the first ball out of play

Precisely as stated in #4 above - "the original ball then ceases to have any continuing role". And in #3 above - "Just hit the 2nd without stating it is a provisional and it then becomes the ball in play."

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

On the subject title of this thread, I do wonder how many times we have to say No.

On the scenario detailed…the last two sentences are the only ones that matter. Yes - OP mate is correct, and No, the player does not have to make even a cursory search.

 

[Colin L]

Can you declare a ball lost? No, or rather you can say the words if you like but they don't mean anything If so, when? Any time you like, but it still doesn't mean anything.


My mate thinks a player can play a provisional, and then not look for the original, treating it as lost, risking that his playing partners don't look for it and find it!. Your mate is correct.

So, is a player obliged to make a (cursory ?) look for the ball? No

I think that covers it.

 

[bobmac]

You hit a ball into the trees and tee up another ball saying ''that ball is lost'' and you hit the second ball down the middle.
Which ball is in play?

 

[Swinglowandslow]

There's a lot of questions here. Here's some facts, reflect on them and then return if you have specific remaining questions.
1. It is not possible to "declare" a ball lost. It gets to that status only by specific things occurring - see the definition of "lost".
2. You can always play again, stroke and distance. Do so and the original ball then ceases to have any continuing role, regardless of where it is or whether it is in a known position.
3. There is no requirement to search for your original ball. If you have played a provisional ball correctly, you may continue with it. But if anyone finds a ball that may be your original and your provisional has not yet become ball in play (see 18.3c(3)) you are obligated to identify if it is yours and, if so, continue with it.

Hmm. Understand that. Ref first sentence of 3, I understand that but I can see a moral dilemma in certain situations.
E.g. On this par 3 ( and others of course) a provisional ball could(?) finish up three inches from the hole. Suppose the original ball was on the edge of the bushes, thought to be easily findable, indeed maybe seen to be there.
But everyone knows that to play it is almost impossible.
The player, relying on 3 above, strides for the green for the tap in.
Would you
1. If you are the player, do that?
2. If playing with / against him, go to look for his original ball?

Bearing in mind the definition of lost ball.
This is the definition of "lost" that appears in the rule book: "The status of a ball that is not found in three minutes after the player or his or her caddie (or the player's partner or partner's caddie) begins to search for it."
So, if no one searches ,it is lost after three minutes!
Regardless of where it is.

 

[Steven Rules]

You hit a ball into the trees and tee up another ball saying ''that ball is lost'' and you hit the second ball down the middle.
Which ball is in play?

The second ball. But the words "that ball is lost" has nothing to do with it.

 

[bobmac]

The second ball. But the words "that ball is lost" has nothing to do with it.

I'm out

 

[rulefan]

I'm out

Why did you ask that question?