Can you declareca ball lost?

[Colin L]

If you hit a ball into the rough, find it & declare it unplayable & you opt to go back to the tee & play another, you don't know where the next shot is going to go, you might hit that one into an unplayable lie too. You can't play a provisional ball for one that may be unplayable. However, if you play a provisional which finishes in a good place & it looks likely that the one in the rough will be unplayable you can opt not to look for it. In effect you've given yourself a choice as to which ball to play, if the "unplayable" one were found after a search.

If the provisional ball rule didn't exist you'd have a dilemma. Do you try to extract the ball from the rough? If you take stroke & distance you don't know where it might finish up - you may hit the second one into a worse lie than the first. Having hit a provisional, however, you already know where the stroke & distance ball is. You have therefore gained an advantage you wouldn't have had if the provisional ball rule didn't exist.

To operate the provisional rule fairly, you should perform a diligent 3 minute search for the ball & only use the provisional if you don't find it. I don't know anybody who does that!

But where in all of that lies an advantage - that is, a gain over other players in the field or your opponent, given that they can do exactly the same any time they blast a shot into the boondocks and play a provisional?
I wonder how much longer every round would be if there were a mandatory 3 minute search every time someone mislaid their ball.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Having a brain fade moment

...in the OP scenario if a player sees his ball go into a bush and is pretty certain he'll be able to find it even though it may be in a horrid place...is he able to play a provisional?

Let's just say on a par 3 he holes his provisional for a 3...he could ask that his ball is not searched for and not look himself. Of course the request doesn't actually stop anyone looking for it in the bush. Bottom line is ...is a provisional only allowed if there is a reasonable chance of the ball being lost or unplayable outside of a Penalty Area.

That's the point I was making about the dilemma. Apparently he doesn't have to go to the bush to look for it. He can "believe " it lost because no one knows that it isn't.
So he can play a provisional. If it's a brilliant shot, he doesn't go to look for his first ball, and hopes no one else does.
However, if he hits a lousy provisional, then he can go to look for the first , hoping and maybe having a very good idea that he'll find it in a not too bad situation for one of his unplayable options to be better than playing his provisional. Indeed, if he goes back to the tee as the 3rd unplayable option, he has another chance to hit a good shot.
That is clearly the advantage
The dilemma for you as someone playing with him is - do you go to look for it?

 

[Backsticks]

The dilemma for you as someone playing with him is - do you go to look for it?

Presumably you owe it to the rest of the field to go and look for it, especially if the player doesnt want you to, as they clearly want a ball to be lost, that may not be lost.
Like marking a ball on the green that might act as a back stop. It isnt for yourself, or the player, its in the fair interest for all those who arent there.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

But where in all of that lies an advantage - that is, a gain over other players in the field or your opponent, given that they can do exactly the same any time they blast a shot into the boondocks and play a provisional?
I wonder how much longer every round would be if there were a mandatory 3 minute search every time someone mislaid their ball.

We know we are not talking about balls that clearly are sent into the jungle and clearly not going to be found, we are talking about the maybes.

Length of time is secondary ,isnt it?

Do you believe someone should hit a provisional but not have it looked for when there's a good chance it may be found, just because it speeds up play?
Suppose "wide boy Jim" uses this when he hits shots to not very nice places and relies on his pps not to look for the ball because they would be being "win at all cost " types, not nice to play with etc.
How would you regard someone who did look for the ball in these circumstances?
Do you think many would?
That's the dilemma I was alluding to.?

 

[Maninblack4612]

But where in all of that lies an advantage - that is, a gain over other players in the field or your opponent, given that they can do exactly the same any time they blast a shot into the boondocks and play a provisional?
I wonder how much longer every round would be if there were a mandatory 3 minute search every time someone mislaid their ball.

I didn't say it gave you an advantage over the rest of the field, just a choice you shouldn't have. Perhaps the solution would be to actually allow a provisional to be played for a ball which may be unplayable, formalising what, in effect, people already do.

 

[backwoodsman]

I didn't say it gave you an advantage over the rest of the field, just a choice you shouldn't have. Perhaps the solution would be to actually allow a provisional to be played for a ball which may be unplayable, formalising what, in effect, people already do.

Given that there has been some form of provision for a 'provisional ball' for very nearly 200 years I think we should be able to live with that choice by now

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think the simple truth of reality is that in most provisional scenarios in which the player’s original ball status looks to be a bit uncertain rather than almost certainly in very deep trouble; lost, or OoB, the odds are that the player will not have to take S&D and will be able to recover his ball to a position at least as good as any provisional played.

Of course there will be exceptions when the provisional shot is such an absolute peach, or the original so very bad, that it will be far preferable for you to ignore the original ball…but you can’t make a playing companion (or other) do likewise, and even if the playing companion doesn’t search for it he cannot ignore any glimpse he has of a possible original ball he might have as he passes (and neither should the player) - he has to call out what he has glimpsed.

 

[backwoodsman]

If the player, player's caddie or partner/partner's caddie have not commenced a search for the original ball, then the time clock has no role - it never commences.

As an aside to the main thrust of the thread, I'm intrigued by the bit about the 'time clock' not commencing. I'll illustrate with an, admittedly unlikely, fr'instance.

Player carves tee shot into the cabbage,. May be lost so plays provisional - which he smokes miles down the middle. It's an easy pitching wedge shot to the green so he doesn't want to find the original and has no intention of looking for it. So when he gets to where original is likely to be, he walks straight past. His provisional is still some way away. (All fairly common so far). He waits while the others in the group play their shots. However when he get to his provisional, he realises he's left his pitching wedge back on the tee (?? - don't ask). He dashes back to tee to pick it up, and returns to his provisional, but just before he hits it someone (don't ask ) finds his original. Considerably longer than 3 minutes has passed since he first got near to where his original was (and decided not to look) - perhaps even 7/8/9 minutes. Does the 'time clock not starting' thing mean his original is still the ball in play?

 

[Colin L]

I didn't say it gave you an advantage over the rest of the field, just a choice you shouldn't have. Perhaps the solution would be to actually allow a provisional to be played for a ball which may be unplayable, formalising what, in effect, people already do.

It's good that we are agreed that it doesn't give any player any advantage any other player/s but I expect it would be looking for too much to hope that you would agree with me that matter is consequently of no importance whatsoever?

 

[DickInShorts]

My favourite is “ I saw it bounce”
It often has bounced but then never been seen again

 

[doublebogey7]

I didn't say it gave you an advantage over the rest of the field, just a choice you shouldn't have. Perhaps the solution would be to actually allow a provisional to be played for a ball which may be unplayable, formalising what, in effect, people already do.

Definitely not, it is solely in the gift of the player to decide whether a ball is unplayable. Therefore if this rule came into being I would be hitting a provisional on every par 3, where I failed to hit the green, just in case I managed to hole out with the provisional.

 

[doublebogey7]

As an aside to the main thrust of the thread, I'm intrigued by the bit about the 'time clock' not commencing. I'll illustrate with an, admittedly unlikely, fr'instance.

Player carves tee shot into the cabbage,. May be lost so plays provisional - which he smokes miles down the middle. It's an easy pitching wedge shot to the green so he doesn't want to find the original and has no intention of looking for it. So when he gets to where original is likely to be, he walks straight past. His provisional is still some way away. (All fairly common so far). He waits while the others in the group play their shots. However when he get to his provisional, he realises he's left his pitching wedge back on the tee (?? - don't ask). He dashes back to tee to pick it up, and returns to his provisional, but just before he hits it someone (don't ask ) finds his original. Considerably longer than 3 minutes has passed since he first got near to where his original was (and decided not to look) - perhaps even 7/8/9 minutes. Does the 'time clock not starting' thing mean his original is still the ball in play?

Yes

 

[Slab]

As an aside to the main thrust of the thread, I'm intrigued by the bit about the 'time clock' not commencing. I'll illustrate with an, admittedly unlikely, fr'instance.

Player carves tee shot into the cabbage,. May be lost so plays provisional - which he smokes miles down the middle. It's an easy pitching wedge shot to the green so he doesn't want to find the original and has no intention of looking for it. So when he gets to where original is likely to be, he walks straight past. His provisional is still some way away. (All fairly common so far). He waits while the others in the group play their shots. However when he get to his provisional, he realises he's left his pitching wedge back on the tee (?? - don't ask). He dashes back to tee to pick it up, and returns to his provisional, but just before he hits it someone (don't ask ) finds his original. Considerably longer than 3 minutes has passed since he first got near to where his original was (and decided not to look) - perhaps even 7/8/9 minutes. Does the 'time clock not starting' thing mean his original is still the ball in play?

Yes

Although maybe the player might now face a breach of 5.6a/1 if their actions as described are deemed an unreasonable delay in play?

Returning to the tee (from the green) to collect a left club is specifically mentioned as an unreasonable delay, and we're told the ball is 'miles down' the fairway
Also the player has walked straight past the area the original ball is likely to be without beginning the search, then waits on other players, then goes forward to provisional ball which is still further away from search area, which could also be an unreasonable delay
Goes back to teeing area, gets the forgotten club, goes back to location of provisional ball passing original ball search area again and further delaying any search for original ball

So with 7/8/9 minutes elapsed (and assuming that his original ball is still the ball in play) in my mind he's delayed play by an unreasonable amount of time and would get the penalty ?

 

[Maninblack4612]

It's good that we are agreed that it doesn't give any player any advantage any other player/s but I expect it would be looking for too much to hope that you would agree with me that matter is consequently of no importance whatsoever?

It's of no importance whatsoever. Its only a game.

 

[backwoodsman]

Although maybe the player might now face a breach of 5.6a/1 if their actions as described are deemed an unreasonable delay in play?

Returning to the tee (from the green) to collect a left club is specifically mentioned as an unreasonable delay, and we're told the ball is 'miles down' the fairway
Also the player has walked straight past the area the original ball is likely to be without beginning the search, then waits on other players, then goes forward to provisional ball which is still further away from search area, which could also be an unreasonable delay
Goes back to teeing area, gets the forgotten club, goes back to location of provisional ball passing original ball search area again and further delaying any search for original ball

So with 7/8/9 minutes elapsed (and assuming that his original ball is still the ball in play) in my mind he's delayed play by an unreasonable amount of time and would get the penalty ?

For the purpose of illustration, I was deliberately ignoring 'unreasonable delay'

 

[bobmac]

Word

 

[rulefan]

It's of no importance whatsoever. Its only a game.

I don't think that would be Shankly's view

 

[Maninblack4612]

I don't think that would be Shankly's view

It's what the wife says, I don't believe it either.

 

[azazel]

Just for fun...

You're playing a course where all the rough is pretty thick and finding a ball that goes in is no better than 50/50.

One on particular hole, you connect well with your drive but tug it ever so slightly, so you're in the rough but 250 yards along the hole. Based on the thickness of the rough you hit a provisional to be safe.

You top the provisional 10 yards off the tee, then hack at it and move it another 20 yards, then hit it again and you're now getting level with or slightly past the point you think your original tee shot is likely to be.

You then begin the search for your original, which you find but in a really horrible lie, so you decide it's unplayable and head back to the tee and play from there under penalty of stroke and distance, and crush one 250 yards back down the fairway.

You've therefore "played" three strokes, even though you'd have actually been lying five if you hadn't found your original ball and had to proceed with the provisional.

All added up correctly and perfectly in keeping with the rules?

 

[Swango1980]

If you hit a ball into the rough, find it & declare it unplayable & you opt to go back to the tee & play another, you don't know where the next shot is going to go, you might hit that one into an unplayable lie too. You can't play a provisional ball for one that may be unplayable. However, if you play a provisional which finishes in a good place & it looks likely that the one in the rough will be unplayable you can opt not to look for it. In effect you've given yourself a choice as to which ball to play, if the "unplayable" one were found after a search.

If the provisional ball rule didn't exist you'd have a dilemma. Do you try to extract the ball from the rough? If you take stroke & distance you don't know where it might finish up - you may hit the second one into a worse lie than the first. Having hit a provisional, however, you already know where the stroke & distance ball is. You have therefore gained an advantage you wouldn't have had if the provisional ball rule didn't exist.

To operate the provisional rule fairly, you should perform a diligent 3 minute search for the ball & only use the provisional if you don't find it. I don't know anybody who does that!

I must say, this statement is absolute nonsense. If it was true, it would be in the rules.

When people think such things, do they completely forget that there are many rules that give players an so called "advantage"? Next we will hear people demanding players take dozens of shots to hack it out of the jungle, as playing fairly is playing the ball as it lies, and the Unplayable Rule gives players an unfair advantage.

To operate any rule fairly, it should simply be done so following the wording within the Rules of Golf.