Can you declareca ball lost?

[salfordlad]

Hmm. Understand that. Ref first sentence of 3, I understand that but I can see a moral dilemma in certain situations.
E.g. On this par 3 ( and others of course) a provisional ball could(?) finish up three inches from the hole. Suppose the original ball was on the edge of the bushes, thought to be easily findable, indeed maybe seen to be there.
But everyone knows that to play it is almost impossible.
The player, relying on 3 above, strides for the green for the tap in.
Would you
1. If you are the player, do that?
2. If playing with / against him, go to look for his original ball?

If you can see what may be the original ball, the player MUST identify whether it is his ball. See 18.3c(2)/2. Refusal to make a reasonable effort to identify may be considered serious misconduct under 1.2a, ie DQ. And if the provisional is played before the found ball is checked and the found ball proves to be the original ball, the stroke at the provisional gets a wrong ball penalty and the player must continue with the original ball.

Bearing in mind the definition of lost ball.
This is the definition of "lost" that appears in the rule book: "The status of a ball that is not found in three minutes after the player or his or her caddie (or the player's partner or partner's caddie) begins to search for it."
So, if no one searches ,it is lost after three minutes!
Regardless of where it is.

Repeating what I said earlier - if there is no search commenced, there is no time clock operating. And the ball CANNOT become lost. Don't confuse "lost" with no longer in play - there are multiple ways, unrelated to "lost", that an original ball can cease to be in play.

 

[rulefan]

If there is no search a ball is never lost.

The definition changed in 2019.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

If there is no search a ball is never lost.

The definition changed in 2019.

So if there is no search the next ball played by the player is because the original is determined ( by the player) to be unplayable. And is played under the third option, I.e from the spot from where the original was played.?

The situation cannot be otherwise.
Which ties in with what Salfordlad says about if it is seen, yes? I,e if seen, it is to be identified and played by the player.
But, if not "seen", and not searched for, then another ball can be played under the Unplayable rule
E.g first ball knocked into long grass, cannot be seen unless looked for, thus back to my dilemma question.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

If you can see what may be the original ball, the player MUST identify whether it is his ball. See 18.3c(2)/2. Refusal to make a reasonable effort to identify may be considered serious misconduct under 1.2a, ie DQ. And if the provisional is played before the found ball is checked and the found ball proves to be the original ball, the stroke at the provisional gets a wrong ball penalty and the player must continue with the original ball.

Repeating what I said earlier - if there is no search commenced, there is no time clock operating. And the ball CANNOT become lost. Don't confuse "lost" with no longer in play - there are multiple ways, unrelated to "lost", that an original ball can cease to be in play.

Not confusing lost with no longer in play?

 

[salfordlad]

So if there is no search the next ball played by the player is because the original is determined ( by the player) to be unplayable. And is played under the third option, I.e from the spot from where the original was played.?

The situation cannot be otherwise.
Which ties in with what Salfordlad says about if it is seen, yes? I,e if seen, it is to be identified and played by the player.
But, if not "seen", and not searched for, then another ball can be played under the Unplayable rule
E.g first ball knocked into long grass, cannot be seen unless looked for, thus back to my dilemma question.

The situation certainly can be otherwise. To be proceeding under Rule 19.2a, the player must have intent to proceed that way. If a player, not wishing to go searching for an original ball struck to an unknown position, just plays another ball without intent to play under 19.2a, then the player has proceeded under Rule 18.1, stroke and distance.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

The situation certainly can be otherwise. To be proceeding under Rule 19.2a, the player must have intent to proceed that way. If a player, not wishing to go searching for an original ball struck to an unknown position, just plays another ball without intent to play under 19.2a, then the player has proceeded under Rule 18.1, stroke and distance.

Ok. Corrected on same outcome under different rule. Mine's the wrong reason , yours the right one?
But stroke and distance ( playing three, hopefully !)in either case.

The point I'm trying to make is .Suppose the player is two inches from the hole after three shots, saying he is taking a provisional. Fearing his first ball may be found in a very bad position requiring him to play again from the tee under rule 19 (which almost certainly will mean he will be much worse off), he does not search for the original ball, nor wants anyone else to.
Would you, playing with/against him, search?
Because if someone did, the ball would likely be found and so he would have to play again off the tee( first two options not possible, as described).
Would you look or would you let him have his "wunderbar " shot.?

 

[salfordlad]

Ok. Corrected on same outcome under different rule. Mine's the wrong reason , yours the right one?
But stroke and distance ( playing three, hopefully !)in either case.

The point I'm trying to make is .Suppose the player is two inches from the hole after three shots, saying he is taking a provisional. Fearing his first ball may be found in a very bad position requiring him to play again from the tee under rule 19 (which almost certainly will mean he will be much worse off), he does not search for the original ball, nor wants anyone else to.
Would you, playing with/against him, search?
Because if someone did, the ball would likely be found and so he would have to play again off the tee( first two options not possible, as described).
Would you look or would you let him have his "wunderbar " shot.?

Your hypothetical is odd. If the player feared his first ball may be found in a very bad position why does he then play a provisional ball? Ignoring that - in stroke play, if another player's provisional has produced their shot of the month and we don't know where the original ball went, I would be very happy to speed on without looking for the original. In a match, my inclination may well be the same, especially if I'm already safely in the middle of the green with 2 putts for a win on the hole.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Just hit the 2nd without stating it is a provisional and it then becomes the ball in play.
It is your actions that make a ball lost, not your words

That's not the point. He wants to see where the provisional finishes before looking for the first one. This is why the provisional rule sometimes gives the player an advantage he shouldn't have.

 

[DickInShorts]

I think some players believe that if they play a second ball off the tee because the first may be lost think it is ALWAYS a Provisional - and that is the only option they have when playing said second ball.

Hence they don’t realise the reason to announce it as a Provisional ball!

 

[Swinglowandslow]

That's not the point. He wants to see where the provisional finishes before looking for the first one. This is why the provisional rule sometimes gives the player an advantage he shouldn't have.

Hurrah, someone's got it!

 

[Colin L]

That's not the point. He wants to see where the provisional finishes before looking for the first one. This is why the provisional rule sometimes gives the player an advantage he shouldn't have.

Could you spell out what the advantage is?

 

[rulefan]

Could you spell out what the advantage is?

Exactly. If the original stroke was from the tee he is now lying 3 instead of 1.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Having a brain fade moment

...in the OP scenario if a player sees his ball go into a bush and is pretty certain he'll be able to find it even though it may be in a horrid place...is he able to play a provisional?

Let's just say on a par 3 he holes his provisional for a 3...he could ask that his ball is not searched for and not look himself. Of course the request doesn't actually stop anyone looking for it in the bush. Bottom line is ...is a provisional only allowed if there is a reasonable chance of the ball being lost or unplayable outside of a Penalty Area.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Could you spell out what the advantage is?

If you hit a ball into the rough, find it & declare it unplayable & you opt to go back to the tee & play another, you don't know where the next shot is going to go, you might hit that one into an unplayable lie too. You can't play a provisional ball for one that may be unplayable. However, if you play a provisional which finishes in a good place & it looks likely that the one in the rough will be unplayable you can opt not to look for it. In effect you've given yourself a choice as to which ball to play, if the "unplayable" one were found after a search.

If the provisional ball rule didn't exist you'd have a dilemma. Do you try to extract the ball from the rough? If you take stroke & distance you don't know where it might finish up - you may hit the second one into a worse lie than the first. Having hit a provisional, however, you already know where the stroke & distance ball is. You have therefore gained an advantage you wouldn't have had if the provisional ball rule didn't exist.

To operate the provisional rule fairly, you should perform a diligent 3 minute search for the ball & only use the provisional if you don't find it. I don't know anybody who does that!

 

[Maninblack4612]

Exactly. If the original stroke was from the tee he is now lying 3 instead of 1.

See #34 below

 

[rulefan]

If you hit a ball into the rough, find it & declare it unplayable & you opt to go back to the tee & play another, you don't know where the next shot is going to go, you might hit that one into an unplayable lie too.

You can't play a provisional ball for one that may be unplayable.

You can if it may be out of bounds

However, if you play a provisional which finishes in a good place & it looks likely that the one in the rough will be unplayable you can opt not to look for it. In effect you've given yourself a choice as to which ball to play.

No you only have given yourself a choice to search or not. If the original is found by someone else in bounds you have no choice. You must play it.

If the provisional ball rule didn't exist you'd have a dilemma. Do you try to extract the ball from the rough? If you take stroke & distance you don't know where it might finish up - you may hit the second one into a worse lie than the first. Having hit a provisional, however, you already know where the stroke & distance ball is.

which may of course be in a worse lie than either or both of the first two.

 

[Maninblack4612]

You can if it may be out of bounds

No you only have given yourself a choice to search or not. If the original is found by someone else in bounds you have no choice. You must play it.

which may of course be in a worse lie than either or both of the first two.

The fact remains that you have an option you wouldn't have if the provisional rule didn't exist.

 

[rulefan]

The fact remains that you have an option you wouldn't have if the provisional rule didn't exist.

Of course its primary purpose is to save time not the give the player any advantage.
A comprehensive discourse on the topic was written by Richard S Tufts in his book "The Principle's Behind the Rules of Golf"

 

[nickjdavis]

Having a brain fade moment

...in the OP scenario if a player sees his ball go into a bush and is pretty certain he'll be able to find it even though it may be in a horrid place...is he able to play a provisional?

Let's just say on a par 3 he holes his provisional for a 3...he could ask that his ball is not searched for and not look himself. Of course the request doesn't actually stop anyone looking for it in the bush. Bottom line is ...is a provisional only allowed if there is a reasonable chance of the ball being lost or unplayable outside of a Penalty Area.

Even if it is "probable" that the ball will be found, if the player has any concern that it might not be findable, then he is perfectly at liberty to play a provisional. We've all hit those shots where we are pretty certain that we will find the ball, whether that be in a bush or elsewhere, but it is inexplicably not found.

Only the player can be the judge as to whether a provisional is appropriate....we've all hit those shots where our playing partners/fellow competitors have said..."yep that's fine you'll find that"...and again...the ball never sees the light of day again.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Even if it is "probable" that the ball will be found, if the player has any concern that it might not be findable, then he is perfectly at liberty to play a provisional. We've all hit those shots where we are pretty certain that we will find the ball, whether that be in a bush or elsewhere, but it is inexplicably not found.

Only the player can be the judge as to whether a provisional is appropriate....we've all hit those shots where our playing partners/fellow competitors have said..."yep that's fine you'll find that"...and again...the ball never sees the light of day again.

Thought so…as noted…was having a brain fade moment.