DMD's on phones - I wish they would sort it properly

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

personally I already play this way - if I hit my first 9 iron 146 carry I tend to adjust my distances with the remaining irons from there on in......although it's even better than that because the warm up range runs parallel to the first hole so the days conditions are pretty much dialled in straight away (although they change at times!)

I'm sure you do - and it takes experience, time and a good understanding of your own game to be able to adjust it according to conditions. My crystal ball gazing takes away the need to develop that experience - technology will do it for you. Just like estimating distance.

 

[haplesshacker]

Having watched and participated in these DMD threads since joining 5 years ago. One thing is clear. Confusion. Though I'm not sure why? Essentially, it's easy to assume that using your smartphone as a DMD in a comp is illegal. You might think the rule is wrong, but it's the rule.

A list of conforming phones won't work. Phones are updated regularly, but it is the apps that matter. your phone might comply, but an app might not.

Technically pretty much any smart phone is already banned on the course because it can provide weather info, (not on the spot accuracy) but it can provide weather info. An app for a compass either in built or downloaded. Slopemeters can be downloaded. So even before you download a DMD app, your phone is an illegal item to have out on the course. Which then begs the question. Should phones be banned from even being on the course? Of course it will never happen. They're ingrained into our daily lives as much as brushing our teeth.

Being a cynic. I wouldn't be surprised if dedicated DMD manufactures lobby the R&A regarding this whole rule. After all, they stand to lose out massively if smart phone DMDs are allowed.

The problem with allowing smart phone DMDs is that the software is changing constantly. Once upon a time, you had something like Freecaddie. Which just gave front, middle and back of green. No pictures, no maps. Five years later and TOUR Caddie comes along. The more you use it properly, it will start to suggest which club to use given the distance that you want to hit, and the percentage chance you have of pulling it off. It's only a small step to include slope into the calculation. So whatever allowance rule the R&A produce today, will be out of date tomorrow.

It might surprise you that I'm actually in favour of smart phone DMDs. However there is an easy way to resolve the issue.

The R&A need to produce a definitive list of what a DMD is allowed to do. And no more. No what is banned, no device lists, no app lists. But a simple what's allowed list by way of what a DMD is allowed to do. e.g.

A DMD device may be used whilst playing golf that ONLY has these functions:

1) It can be used to determine the distance to any point on the golf golf course.
2) It can be used to measure the distance you have hit the ball.
3) A graphical overlay, either a direct image or a CGI one.
4) Contain a scorecard.
5) Be able to export scorecard data.
6) The DMD, either dedicated or app, must not access weather or compass functions that may be included on the device.

This way all DMD designers will have a clear cut set of rules with which to develop their products.

If in the future the R&A want to include club selection within that list of approved capabilities, then that can be added to the list.

At least by taking this approach a golfer should be confident that any product he buys should conform. Be that an app or dedicated device.

Personally I have no issue playing with someone using a smart phone DMD. Providing it's not using any of the banned capabilities. After all, we all have the capability to use the compass or weather apps. Regardless whether or not we're using our smart phone as a DMD or not.

Sorry to have rambled.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Having watched and participated in these DMD threads since joining 5 years ago. One thing is clear. Confusion. Though I'm not sure why? Essentially, it's easy to assume that using your smartphone as a DMD in a comp is illegal. You might think the rule is wrong, but it's the rule.

A list of conforming phones won't work. Phones are updated regularly, but it is the apps that matter. your phone might comply, but an app might not.

Technically pretty much any smart phone is already banned on the course because it can provide weather info, (not on the spot accuracy) but it can provide weather info. An app for a compass either in built or downloaded. Slopemeters can be downloaded. So even before you download a DMD app, your phone is an illegal item to have out on the course. Which then begs the question. Should phones be banned from even being on the course? Of course it will never happen. They're ingrained into our daily lives as much as brushing our teeth.

Being a cynic. I wouldn't be surprised if dedicated DMD manufactures lobby the R&A regarding this whole rule. After all, they stand to lose out massively if smart phone DMDs are allowed.

The problem with allowing smart phone DMDs is that the software is changing constantly. Once upon a time, you had something like Freecaddie. Which just gave front, middle and back of green. No pictures, no maps. Five years later and TOUR Caddie comes along. The more you use it properly, it will start to suggest which club to use given the distance that you want to hit, and the percentage chance you have of pulling it off. It's only a small step to include slope into the calculation. So whatever allowance rule the R&A produce today, will be out of date tomorrow.

It might surprise you that I'm actually in favour of smart phone DMDs. However there is an easy way to resolve the issue.

The R&A need to produce a definitive list of what a DMD is allowed to do. And no more. No what is banned, no device lists, no app lists. But a simple what's allowed list by way of what a DMD is allowed to do. e.g.

A DMD device may be used whilst playing golf that ONLY has these functions:

1) It can be used to determine the distance to any point on the golf golf course.
2) It can be used to measure the distance you have hit the ball.
3) A graphical overlay, either a direct image or a CGI one.
4) Contain a scorecard.
5) Be able to export scorecard data.
6) The DMD, either dedicated or app, must not access weather or compass functions that may be included on the device.

This way all DMD designers will have a clear cut set of rules with which to develop their products.

If in the future the R&A want to include club selection within that list of approved capabilities, then that can be added to the list.

At least by taking this approach a golfer should be confident that any product he buys should conform. Be that an app or dedicated device.

Personally I have no issue playing with someone using a smart phone DMD. Providing it's not using any of the banned capabilities. After all, we all have the capability to use the compass or weather apps. Regardless whether or not we're using our smart phone as a DMD or not.

Sorry to have rambled.

I like the above - a clear and logical thought through argument - not questioning the rule or limitations but seeking to nail it.

I myself would never allow a DMD to give any player-specific guidance - such as club to use. I'd have that as an over-riding and definiing principle for such devices.

 

[Hacker Khan]

You do realise that in other sports when people cheat they do it properly by taking some crazy drugs and having full blood transfusions. But in golf all you need to do is switch your phone on. Very poor golf, must try harder...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You do realise that in other sports when people cheat they do it properly by taking some crazy drugs and having full blood transfusions. But in golf all you need to do is switch your phone on. Very poor golf, must try harder...

Could try taking beta-blockers to slow your heart down so that 3footer to win the match doesn't have to be holed with your heart pumping out of your chest?

 

[duncan mackie]

Having watched and participated in these DMD threads since joining 5 years ago. One thing is clear. Confusion. Though I'm not sure why? Essentially, it's easy to assume that using your smartphone as a DMD in a comp is illegal. You might think the rule is wrong, but it's the rule.

A list of conforming phones won't work. Phones are updated regularly, but it is the apps that matter. your phone might comply, but an app might not.

Technically pretty much any smart phone is already banned on the course because it can provide weather info, (not on the spot accuracy) but it can provide weather info. An app for a compass either in built or downloaded. Slopemeters can be downloaded. So even before you download a DMD app, your phone is an illegal item to have out on the course. Which then begs the question. Should phones be banned from even being on the course? Of course it will never happen. They're ingrained into our daily lives as much as brushing our teeth.

Being a cynic. I wouldn't be surprised if dedicated DMD manufactures lobby the R&A regarding this whole rule. After all, they stand to lose out massively if smart phone DMDs are allowed.

The problem with allowing smart phone DMDs is that the software is changing constantly. Once upon a time, you had something like Freecaddie. Which just gave front, middle and back of green. No pictures, no maps. Five years later and TOUR Caddie comes along. The more you use it properly, it will start to suggest which club to use given the distance that you want to hit, and the percentage chance you have of pulling it off. It's only a small step to include slope into the calculation. So whatever allowance rule the R&A produce today, will be out of date tomorrow.

It might surprise you that I'm actually in favour of smart phone DMDs. However there is an easy way to resolve the issue.

The R&A need to produce a definitive list of what a DMD is allowed to do. And no more. No what is banned, no device lists, no app lists. But a simple what's allowed list by way of what a DMD is allowed to do. e.g.

A DMD device may be used whilst playing golf that ONLY has these functions:

1) It can be used to determine the distance to any point on the golf golf course.
2) It can be used to measure the distance you have hit the ball.
3) A graphical overlay, either a direct image or a CGI one.
4) Contain a scorecard.
5) Be able to export scorecard data.
6) The DMD, either dedicated or app, must not access weather or compass functions that may be included on the device.

This way all DMD designers will have a clear cut set of rules with which to develop their products.

If in the future the R&A want to include club selection within that list of approved capabilities, then that can be added to the list.

At least by taking this approach a golfer should be confident that any product he buys should conform. Be that an app or dedicated device.

Personally I have no issue playing with someone using a smart phone DMD. Providing it's not using any of the banned capabilities. After all, we all have the capability to use the compass or weather apps. Regardless whether or not we're using our smart phone as a DMD or not.

Sorry to have rambled.

no issue with rambling , but I completely disagree with just about everything you say in this, and that's before the confusion it adds back in areas!

a few examples

1. the issue with weather 'apps' is a complete red herring. Unless the device is capable of delivering 'spot' conditions, in the same way as a physical sensor at that point detecting temperature, wind, pressure (ie For the purpose of gauging or measuring ..... conditions that might affect his play) it's neither an issue for a DMD or as a device being used for that purpose during the round. Put simply, you can get the general weather situation in the area whilst playing without breaking 14-3.
2. with the exception of applications that mimic a compass from GPS data when moving I fail to see how an application can create a problem without a hardware sensor; it's these that cause the breach not the software. How much more clarity can anyone possibly want?

"the use of a distance-measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect a player's play (e.g., gradient, wind speed, temperature, etc) is not permitted regardless of whether such an additional function is used." + a smartphone used as a DMD is considered to be a DMD leaves no room for doubt; just endless debate as to why.

I'm aware of one, old model, smartphone that doesn't have either temperature, attitude, pressure or compass sensors - if there were others then I'm sure forums, clubs etc would quickly 'list' them!

I've already posted an explanation of my understanding of why the DMD rules are different with regard to have rather than use, I do agree with you that the rules would be easier if they didn't have this differential but I only see more reasin to retain it today than when it was first implemented.

As to the areas you raise under 1-6, these are all covered clearly within the current rules.

All the confusion seems to come from people who don't like it the way it is.

 

[duncan mackie]

You do realise that in other sports when people cheat they do it properly by taking some crazy drugs and having full blood transfusions. But in golf all you need to do is switch your phone on.

another example of a complete falsehood that will probably create a myth somewhere within a week......

 

[Hacker Khan]

I must admit I'm a bit confused myself. So are you saying I can no longer take one of this on the course with me now?

 

[Hacker Khan]

And surely you are not telling me this is now banned???

 

[haplesshacker]

no issue with rambling , but I completely disagree with just about everything you say in this, and that's before the confusion it adds back in areas!

a few examples

1. the issue with weather 'apps' is a complete red herring. Unless the device is capable of delivering 'spot' conditions, in the same way as a physical sensor at that point detecting temperature, wind, pressure (ie For the purpose of gauging or measuring ..... conditions that might affect his play) it's neither an issue for a DMD or as a device being used for that purpose during the round. Put simply, you can get the general weather situation in the area whilst playing without breaking 14-3.
2. with the exception of applications that mimic a compass from GPS data when moving I fail to see how an application can create a problem without a hardware sensor; it's these that cause the breach not the software. How much more clarity can anyone possibly want?

"the use of a distance-measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that might affect a player's play (e.g., gradient, wind speed, temperature, etc) is not permitted regardless of whether such an additional function is used." + a smartphone used as a DMD is considered to be a DMD leaves no room for doubt; just endless debate as to why.

I'm aware of one, old model, smartphone that doesn't have either temperature, attitude, pressure or compass sensors - if there were others then I'm sure forums, clubs etc would quickly 'list' them!

I've already posted an explanation of my understanding of why the DMD rules are different with regard to have rather than use, I do agree with you that the rules would be easier if they didn't have this differential but I only see more reasin to retain it today than when it was first implemented.

As to the areas you raise under 1-6, these are all covered clearly within the current rules.

All the confusion seems to come from people who don't like it the way it is.

I agree about the weather app situation. I've raced yachts most of my life, so if there's one thing I understand it's the forecast verses on the spot weather info. The whole weather thing is a red herring. So it's irrelevant. Though not according to the R&A as I understand it. Dumb ruling. No phone I'm aware off can give you on the spot weather info for that moment in time.

The compass issue is another red herring. If you wear an analogue watch, you can find the compass bearings anyway. An old boy scout trick that's easy enough to learn. So another dumb ruling.

My proposal would simply clarify what functions you are allowed to use, with any device. Nothing could be simpler. The rules are non sensical at the moment.

"All the confusion seems to come from people who don't like the way it is"

Rather sweeping statement. Maybe it's the flat earth society that don't like change, or those that have coughed up £300 for a dedicated device and don't want to see it as a waste of money when free apps are available. Lobbyists can come in the form of manufactures, and users of dedicated devices.

Golf clubs (the bats) are controlled by certain criteria set by the R&A. As are golf balls. I'm merely proposing that the same logic be applied to DMDs and the technology. How is that even more confusing?

After all, If you have your smart phone on you, you have the same potential to break the rules. whether you're using a smart phone as a DMD or not. The current ruling makes no sense. Regardless of whether we as individuals agree with the use of smart phones or not.

 

[duncan mackie]

1.The whole weather thing is a red herring. So it's irrelevant. Though not according to the R&A as I understand it.

2.The compass issue is another red herring. If you wear an analogue watch, you can find the compass bearings anyway. An old boy scout trick that's easy enough to learn. So another dumb ruling.

2. Maybe it's the flat earth society that don't like change,

3. Golf clubs (the bats) are controlled by certain criteria set by the R&A. As are golf balls. I'm merely proposing that the same logic be applied to DMDs and the technology. How is that even more confusing?

1. so having agreed, you throught this unsubstantiated 'understanding' to keep the issue live - please quote the relevant section that creates this understanding.

2. the confusion isn't created by change, it's created by people who don't agree with something - as I refered to in my sweeping generalisation, and as you have classically supported in your response.

3. I said the opposite - that such a move would make things easier to understand; I went on to explain why such a simplification would be more inappropriate now, then when it was first introduced (by reference to other posts in this thread).

 

[duncan mackie]

I must admit I'm a bit confused myself. So are you saying I can no longer take one of this on the course with me now?

View attachment 6942

where did I say that?

you wouldn't be in breach of any rules having this in your bag when playing.

 

[Colin L]

where did I say that?

you wouldn't be in breach of any rules having this in your bag when playing......

..... just don't make a stroke at your ball with it.

 

[palindromicbob]

Lobbyists can come in the form of manufactures, ...

If you were a fly on the wall in the back rooms I think this would probably be a major reason.

 

[haplesshacker]

where did I say that?

you wouldn't be in breach of any rules having this in your bag when playing.

You're not in any breech of the rule by having your smart phone in your bag, or pocket. (I know you weren't specifically referring to this, but it's an interesting point.) But you are if you use one as a DMD, even if as a DMD it does not use the compass or other banned capabilities.

This is why it's confusing. It's not logical.

As to the other issues you raised with my reply earlier. I think I'll agree to disagree. My original post was quite clear, and all I offered was a solution. I'm really not fussed if you like it or not.

 

[Hacker Khan]

where did I say that?

you wouldn't be in breach of any rules having this in your bag when playing.

Please note that not all of the stuff I post is to be taken that seriously or literally. Especially the posts asking if I can take 3 foot barometers round a golf course with me.

 

[Airlie_Andy]

Just to clarify

1. Can I have my smartphone with on the course?

2. Can I use said smartphone to say check my messages or emails or perhaps play candy crush while we have the inevitable 10 minute wait on the tee?

3. Am I therefore trusted to not use the smartphone to access illegal information whilst on the course?


4. Can I have a dedicated DMD in my bag?

5. Can I use said DMD to give my distances to set points on the course?

6. What is the difference between using my smartphone on the course as a DMD and being trusted not to access illegal info as opposed to using my smartphone on the course but not as a DMD but also having a dedicated DMD to use?

I can't help but feel this all comes down to the big companies lobbying to keep anything but a dedicated DMD illegal in order to protect the business.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Just to clarify

1. Can I have my smartphone with on the course?

2. Can I use said smartphone to say check my messages or emails or perhaps play candy crush while we have the inevitable 10 minute wait on the tee?

3. Am I therefore trusted to not use the smartphone to access illegal information whilst on the course?


4. Can I have a dedicated DMD in my bag?

5. Can I use said DMD to give my distances to set points on the course?

6. What is the difference between using my smartphone on the course as a DMD and being trusted not to access illegal info as opposed to using my smartphone on the course but not as a DMD but also having a dedicated DMD to use?

I can't help but feel this all comes down to the big companies lobbying to keep anything but a dedicated DMD illegal in order to protect the business.

1) Yes
2) Yes, playing Candy Crush on the tee whilst watching a 26 handicapper wait 5 mins before trying to hit a 250 yard 3 wood onto the green and duff it 70 yards into the rough is mandatory
3) No you are not, you cheat
4) No but you can have a WMD
5) As long as it does not explode and cause mass destruction
6) None, but as has already been pointed out it's probable that you and everyone else are cheats, and will therefore use your smart phone to look the barometric pressure and gain an unfair advantage. So the ruling body have to make up yet another complicated set of rules to add to the 47265 other ones which make this game so easy to understand.

 

[mefromhere]

It strikes me as very odd that in a game of trust, where you can be hundreds of yards away from anybody else and it to be assumed that you will call a penalty on yourself if you were dislodge a single leaf from a tree on a practice swing that individual players cannot be trusted not to use banned information when looking at a phone.

I have to say it does look a lot like it could be down to DMD manufacturers making sure that their 2/3/400 pound device is not being overtaken by something that can cost literally nothing!

 

[haplesshacker]

It strikes me as very odd that in a game of trust, where you can be hundreds of yards away from anybody else and it to be assumed that you will call a penalty on yourself if you were dislodge a single leaf from a tree on a practice swing that individual players cannot be trusted not to use banned information when looking at a phone.

I was going to make this point earlier, but felt that I'd said enough!

This is another reason why the current rule makes no sense.