Conflicting Views from Golf Pro's

[michaeljpoole]

Recently I have been having a series of golf lessons in Hong Kong (9 so far). Pretty major changes to my golf swing but the crux of it is to stop myself swinging so far from the inside. We have been working on trying to swing much more on plane. I have been very pleased with the results. Obviously it takes time and practice to get used to a new swing but i do seem to be hitting my irons with a crisper strike and the ball flight seems to be a lot straighter. For some context i play off 12 before I started the lessons. Previously my bad shot was a snap hook or a big block push slice so by trying to get more on plane we have been trying to achieve a more neutral ball flight. Previously everything was a draw. During my first lesson the pro asked me to try to hit a fade. This was virtually impossible for me.

One of the key ways i have been trying to not swing so far from the inside is to take the club back a lot straighter with no wrist break and then hinge the right elbow. This is achieved by keeping my left arm close to my body.

I am back in the UK this week and went for a Mizuno club fitting at my old local golf club as I was looking to get some custom fit new irons. The pro who did this I had had 2 lessons with previously a couple of years ago. In short he basically said the pro I had been seeing had ruined my swing and made all the classic mistakes a number of teaching pro's made. The main point seemed to be by taking my hands back to stay on plane i was becoming disconnected. I should be hinging my wrists a lot earlier.

Without getting too much into detail it was quite worrying to hear all of this. I could hardly concentrate on my club fitting. But it got me thinking. Do different pro's have different swings they teach? It wasn't nice to hear him say the pro i had been seeing had basically ruined my swing. He said i was being taught the Rotary swing. Now this may not be the swing he agrees with, but then this should just be his opinion.

I have put time and money into lessons and to rebuild my swing and it is not nice to hear this from another pro. But then again I can see for a fact my game is improving. I have played 4 rounds this week back in the UK mainly with my Dad who said i seem to be hitting the ball the best he has ever seen. i played 9 holes today and hit 6 Green's in Reg.

So I guess the question is do i stick with the pro I am seeing now. I hardly want to go through another rebuild when this is all so new. Thoughts? I think when I am back in HK I will ask my pro why he is teaching this way to see his reasons for it as opposed to what I am being told here?

Mike

 

[garyinderry]

I am pretty much the same as yourself. big slingy hooks with most of my clubs. take the club way inside on the backswing.


I went out for a few holes with scouser this morning and he was saying he had a lesson yesterday and the pro was getting him to hinge up rather than roll around flat.

I opened up my stance slightly, hinged up and was hitting fades to order! some cutting more than I would liked but it was a real lightbulb moment.

in the past I would really have had to fight with my swing to get a cut and more often than not I would just double cross myself.

go with the early hinge. you see a lot of pros working that hinge in their pre-shot routine.

 

[Stuey01]

You're getting results with the changes you are making. That's your proof. Why second guess?

 

[the_coach]

Given the shot pattern you describe, that you're naturally enough trying to get rid of your 'old' swing path & plane. What the Pro in HK is asking you to do is really imo what any good Pro would be asking you to do.

You need a swing thats a ways more neutral plane, as the fault in both the blocks & hooks come from a path thats coming from a ways too far inside to out.
So doing this means top of your 'old' swing your club arms have to be a good ways behind your back. By that with this 'old' path if you got to the top of your swing & just let go & dropped the club it would fall to the ground without probably even hitting your back at least not till the bottom of your back your butt.

The club going back will need to feel straighter, club head 'outside' your hands so when the shaft is first parallel it's parallel to your toe line & ball/target line, in the old swing club shaft wouldn't be parallel it would be starting to point behind your legs.

But you can still make this 'new' straighter move away without disconnecting from your body turn, you definitely don't want that, the only way you'll disconnect is if you take it away outside the target line & over stretch your arms going back.

Have a look at the first move away & backswing to the top in this vid, its going back the way you'll need to put it's not disconnecting. I'm not saying that this is a fault you have or you should look to follow any other of this guys instruction. But the vid illustrates what I mean as to the straighter path going back & you don't get disconnected anyways, which leads to a path back down & through that's more neutral so no more bid hooks, pushes.

When your left arm (assuming your RH) is parallel to the ground your hands/wrist set to give you a 90º angle between left arm & shaft your hands want to be more opposite the center of your chest (not further back behind you) then when you get toe the top the shaft will be over top of your right shoulder so if you let go it would now hit your shoulder.

From here you just start transition from the ground up & your arms hand & club stay more in front of your chest coming doen which gives you the 'in to square to then back in, in the through swing" so much more neutral so there's not so much over closing down of the face coming into impact that the old real in to out path would need hence sometimes big hooks or pushes & all in between.

The more neutral swing path means the club face is not having to make such a big movement to get to square at impact.
Your working towards what most of the Tour Pro's do, with some obvious exceptions like Bubba!

To me what your old Pro said was real bad form, you just don't do that to another Pro, never mind former student, not cool.

[video=youtube_share;S5D497hngDU]http://youtu.be/S5D497hngDU[/video]

 

[Foxholer]

Bad form indeed by your old Pro!

Certainly many Pros have different philosophies/methods. They may or may not wish to discuss/categorise them. The best, imo, know the various 'methods', assess the individual and apply whichever techniques (not necessarily method) seem most appropriate to the individual and his/her physical capabilities. These are not 'method' teachers - they are teachers of individuals!

Your new one is getting results. that's all you need to care about!

Btw. Doesn't seem like you are 'losing connection' to me. at least not on the back-swing.

As for 'The Rotary Swing'...If there was a single 'method' that I would wish to adopt, this would be it! Shame I'm a crotchety inflexible ex (field) hockey player with 35 years of that that game's techniques (and injuries) to overcome! So take my 'bias' with as much salt as you feel it needs.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Read "The Plane Truth" by Jim Hardy or visit the website. His analysis of the golf swing is that there are two fundamental, and very different, ways to swing the golf club. Sounds to me as if your Hong Kong pro has you swinging with the shoulders & arms in one plane, Jim Hardy's favoured method. The early wrist hinge mentioned by your original pro belongs to the "Two Plane" swing, where the arms swing on a much steeper plane than the shoulders. It's basically the difference between Matt Kuchar (One Plane) & Colin Montgomerie (Two Plane). According to Hardy, both methods work but mixing the two doesn't. There are a few Plane Truth qualified instructors in this country, although I found the book extremely helpful.

This is the main reason, in my view, that a lot of the instruction you read in golf magazines appears contradictory, the instructors are teaching "their" method not "the" method.

 

[Foxholer]

Read "The Plane Truth" by Jim Hardy or visit the website. His analysis of the golf swing is that there are two fundamental, and very different, ways to swing the golf club. Sounds to me as if your Hong Kong pro has you swinging with the shoulders & arms in one plane, Jim Hardy's favoured method. The early wrist hinge mentioned by your original pro belongs to the "Two Plane" swing, where the arms swing on a much steeper plane than the shoulders. It's basically the difference between Matt Kuchar (One Plane) & Colin Montgomerie (Two Plane). According to Hardy, both methods work but mixing the two doesn't. There are a few Plane Truth qualified instructors in this country, although I found the book extremely helpful.

This is the main reason, in my view, that a lot of the instruction you read in golf magazines appears contradictory, the instructors are teaching "their" method not "the" method.

I was also going to mention 1PS vs 2PS. The 'problem' I've seen with folk that mention this is that they ALL then get taught/changed to the 1PS!

There was an interesting article in one of the Golfwrx twice-weekly emails (yeah honestly!) making the case for the various natural types of swings being predictable from physical attributes - the relationships between length of arms vs Height and between the forearms and upper arms. Here's the link http://www.golfwrx.com/181715/biome...tter+4/22&utm_campaign=11-11&utm_medium=email I'm not 1000% convinced, but it's an interesting concept/thought.

Recently saw a Pro (with GC2/HMT) assessing a talented (scary long) pupil he had also got to swing less in-to-out to avoid the huge blocks and hooks and hit a hit straight/slight draw more consistently. The lesson was actually about how good he now was and how it was his mind that needed training most now - and how to do it!

 

[harpo_72]

Results are the key, if your improving and enjoying your game and not suffering any physical issues then carry on with you HK pro. There is really no wrong or right swing, the club just has to go toward target at contact, it can get there in many ways and there are players who have had successful careers with some pretty different swings. So stick with what gets results and you'll get so much more fun from the game.
There are some pro's who are just wide boys sadly, people can indicate they are but no one will ever say for sure. I would just shoot the breeze with the uk pro and leave it at that.

 

[Maninblack4612]

In response to Foxholers reference to the GolfWRX article, I think it misses something. Matt Kuchar has, for his height, long arms. This means he can't bend over the ball at address as much as someone who has shorter arms and, therefore, his shoulders rotate on a much flatter plane. Being a one planer, his arms follow the shoulders & his swing looks flat. I have a similar build, I'm 6 feet tall but my inside leg is only 30½" and I have long arms. My swing looks flat, but I've stopped listening to people who tell me that. (My swing is at. CIMG4206 2: http://youtu.be/HImCv-rrlyM if anyone is interested, looks crap but produced a gross 76 to win the last club comp, 4th best gross at age 67!)

I agree that physiology has a bearing on how your swing looks but not on how you actually swing.

 

[garyinderry]

I still cant get my head around the ''9 weeks to try and get it less inside''.


is this normal?

 

[michaeljpoole]

Thanks for all the advice guys I appreciate it. When I have my next lesson in HK, I will ask my pro why he teaches this way as opposed to the UK pro and the early hinge.

As people have been saying there is more than one way to swing a club and what's important is to trust in what you are doing as long as the coach can justify his actions.

The simple fact is I am hitting the ball straighter and better than ever. The whole aim of my HK pro was to try to eliminate the massive snap hooks blocked slices caused by coming from the inside and having to role the wrists to compensate.

I do agree it's fairly poor form to criticise another method that's why I am really looking forward to hearing the hk pro justify his method of teaching.

 

[michaeljpoole]

I still cant get my head around the ''9 weeks to try and get it less inside''.


is this normal?

I still cant get my head around the ''9 weeks to try and get it less inside''.

Well I have had nine lessons so far in a total swing re build, but surely we all recognise major changes don't come over night. It takes a lot of practice and supervision to try and ingrain the new swing until it feels natural.

My dad commented my swing currently looks mechanical. Not saying this is a bad thing but it shows I still consistently having to think about what I am doing still

 

[duncan mackie]

I still cant get my head around the ''9 weeks to try and get it less inside''.


is this normal?

I'm on my third year of exactly this change and it still bites me from time to time!

 

[garyinderry]

holy moley. I may just hold the hand I've been dealt then. that sounds like a hell of a lot of work!

 

[duncan mackie]

holy moley. I may just hold the hand I've been dealt then. that sounds like a hell of a lot of work!

so much will depend on why you have got to where you want to change from - and how long you were there!

for many as they age it gets more comfortable to swing a little inside, a little flatter and reduce the lower body activity...then the shoulder turn etc etc

then one day someone will say - "crikey, that a flat swing; how do you hit the ball at all?" and you think about the increasing number of duck hooks and blocks creeping into your game and decide to try and reverse the ravages of time!

for anyone under 40 it's generally a completely different issue - 2000 range balls with occasional checks from the pro and it's job done.

 

[the_coach]

Donald started with C. Cook around 12 months ago, on for him a ways major swing change, only now getting to the place where he feels better with it all. That said, at the start last round at Hilton, the old swing still came back & bit him some on a few of the early tee shots, but then he managed to get the 'new' feel back & would have been in a play-off with Kuchar, but for Kuchar holing his bunker shot on the 18th.

Truth is any change no matter how small, takes a good while to get it down good so the golfer doesn't drift back to the old situation because of ingrained habit & comfort.

There's comes a point with anyone's game when what you have gets you to the level you're able to reach with what you have. Sticking with what you have you'll have a few good days when you shoot better numbers but no real leap forward to get off of the plateau you get stuck to. & you will get stuck somewhere along the route.

Sometimes if you have great but unusual natural talent to can get real good, Furyk, Bubba, but for the majority of folks that get 'stuck' a good ways behind that level, or Cat 1 or Cat 2, wherever they pulled up at.

They have tow choices, you either accept where you are & enjoy the slightly better days when you beat par by a few, & nothing wrong with that if you're content with it.

Or you have to make a concerted effort with some professional guidance to get better, but that requires work, & work over time, there's no sustainable quick fix, & usually the higher the handicap index the more there will be too change.

If you take the decision to change you have to make sure you really enter the contract as a 'student' with your 'teacher' seriously.
They have all the knowledge which they can share with you, you have to be ready to learn, someone can only really 'get it' through having there own "learned experience" under that guidance, as Michael Hebron rightly says.

To learn you'll undoubtedly have to change a bunch of things. Your part of the contract is to accept you're going to have to change a bunch of things & get on with that, accept it will feel different, uncomfortable for a good while & don't do the easy thing & give up & go back to comfy, cause comfy hasn't been right. You also have to accept & you're going to get a bunch of peculiar shots along the way to getting better. Stick with it come out a good while later with your 'new shiny golf swing' & all you still have to do is learn to use it out on the course. It's never easy but the folks I see that have done it are a bunch better & happier that they did it, won't be for everyone though. As ever depends what you want to achieve & how determined you are to get it done.

 

[CMAC]

Donald started with C. Cook around 12 months ago, on for him a ways major swing change, only now getting to the place where he feels better with it all. That said, at the start last round at Hilton, the old swing still came back & bit him some on a few of the early tee shots, but then he managed to get the 'new' feel back & would have been in a play-off with Kuchar, but for Kuchar holing his bunker shot on the 18th.

Truth is any change no matter how small, takes a good while to get it down good so the golfer doesn't drift back to the old situation because of ingrained habit & comfort.

There's comes a point with anyone's game when what you have gets you to the level you're able to reach with what you have. Sticking with what you have you'll have a few good days when you shoot better numbers but no real leap forward to get off of the plateau you get stuck to. & you will get stuck somewhere along the route.

Sometimes if you have great but unusual natural talent to can get real good, Furyk, Bubba, but for the majority of folks that get 'stuck' a good ways behind that level, or Cat 1 or Cat 2, wherever they pulled up at.

They have tow choices, you either accept where you are & enjoy the slightly better days when you beat par by a few, & nothing wrong with that if you're content with it.

Or you have to make a concerted effort with some professional guidance to get better, but that requires work, & work over time, there's no sustainable quick fix, & usually the higher the handicap index the more there will be too change.

If you take the decision to change you have to make sure you really enter the contract as a 'student' with your 'teacher' seriously.
They have all the knowledge which they can share with you, you have to be ready to learn, someone can only really 'get it' through having there own "learned experience" under that guidance, as Michael Hebron rightly says.

To learn you'll undoubtedly have to change a bunch of things. Your part of the contract is to accept you're going to have to change a bunch of things & get on with that, accept it will feel different, uncomfortable for a good while & don't do the easy thing & give up & go back to comfy, cause comfy hasn't been right. You also have to accept & you're going to get a bunch of peculiar shots along the way to getting better. Stick with it come out a good while later with your 'new shiny golf swing' & all you still have to do is learn to use it out on the course. It's never easy but the folks I see that have done it are a bunch better & happier that they did it, won't be for everyone though. As ever depends what you want to achieve & how determined you are to get it done.

excellent post:thup: :clap:

 

[Foxholer]

as Michael Hebron rightly says.

To learn you'll undoubtedly have to change a bunch of things. Your part of the contract is to accept you're going to have to change a bunch of things & get on with that, accept it will feel different, uncomfortable for a good while & don't do the easy thing & give up & go back to comfy, cause comfy hasn't been right. You also have to accept & you're going to get a bunch of peculiar shots along the way to getting better. Stick with it come out a good while later with your 'new shiny golf swing' & all you still have to do is learn to use it out on the course. It's never easy but the folks I see that have done it are a bunch better & happier that they did it, won't be for everyone though. As ever depends what you want to achieve & how determined you are to get it done.

I'll try to remember this when I'm hauling the occasional one very much left, while trying to take advantage of the 'proper flex' shaft I'm now using! When it works, the results are spectacular :thup:. When it doesn't work, well the results are also spectacular! :temper:

 

[the_coach]

Though there are also 'two ends' to a stick ....

many like Donald who appears to be positively coming through the changes, Faldo who definitely did come through the other side plus many others, ams too. But the other end of the stick there's Duval, world no 1, shot a competitive "59" then tried to change his swing & his mental outlook on the course & sadly has never recovered. Then there's Norman who stuck, pretty damn successful! but with a major flaw in his swing motion which struck more than once under the severest pressure of the majors, & at the Masters more than once.

........ unless it's a hoop! .... & you stay going around & around, many get stuck that way too, so stay stuck at the same level ....

 

[Foxholer]

........ unless it's a hoop! .... & you stay going around & around, many get stuck that way too, so stay stuck at the same level ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN4TxmWK0bE