Club Systems costs + membership

[BrizoH71]

So, we've just received notification that our membership fee is going up again for next year. It's not a massive amount, but it has already led to some grumblings from members considering their positions to renew next year.

Our membership has dropped in number from last year, and we're struggling - to my mind anyway - to attract sufficient new members to the club. As a result, existing members are picking up the slack.

I've seen very little attempts by the club to actively recruit new blood into the club, and one of my biggest bugbears is the club website which I think is god-awful. We use the Club Systems service for everything... online booking, handicap recording, competition entry, website and we use the generic horrible template for the latter.

The website has very little relevant information for prospective members aside from the yearly cost; the course guide is just a badly scanned copy of the course shot saver, and there is news on teh site from 2015! I could write a lot more about what is wrong with it, but I won't.

What I would like to know if anyone can shed some insight is the cost implications of separating the website from the backend functions of the club and having the site redeveloped and hosted separately. I've offered to redesign the website and host it on my own servers on more than one occasion, but the club have declined even though web development & design, and digital marketing is my career field. I'm convinced that the current website setup is costing the club money and also curtailing the club's ability to attract new membership.

There was a thread on here a while back about what people look for on a club's website; I can't find it, but I would also like to know what people find useful when looking at a course to join. I'd like to try and present a case at the AGM to investigate the possibility of separating the two with a view to trying to better serve the recruitment process that I feel is lacking currently.

Feel free to visit the existing website, rip it apart with criticisms if you like and point me in the direction of good website examples of what you look for.

Genuinely interested in your thoughts.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

In would highly recommend you approach Intelligent Golf and get a cost quote from them

They will be able to do everything - build you a bespoke website that will be attractive for visitors and it will give you everything you need as a club to run your comps and membership and will be more time effective for everyone

Go onto their website and check out their sites they have built

http://www.intelligentgolf.co.uk
Cost wise it's about £1000-1300 a year more expensive than CS but it's worth every penny.

This is our website that they built and are currently finishing for us

http://www.Lbgc.co.uk

 

[Hobbit]

Great front page but after that... pure rubbish. As an advert it doesn't entice me 'in.'

To me, the link in Phil's post to Leighton Buzzard ticks all the boxes. If you're getting nowhere with the club committee, put it to the AGM with a presentation of your offering. You might find that the membership support your proposal.

To e fair, if your committee is full of old duffers like me they'll be too frightened to admit they haven't got a clue when it comes to sorting out the club's website. Equally, if the club is struggling, maybe they know the club can't afford one.

 

[DCB]

The Web site content is down to someone at the club making best use of the templates available. IF done well it will import comp details, results and club diary quite readily. I used the system when I was our Junior Convener to create pages for our Juniors. IT takes time to keep the info up to date. If you don't keep it current it isn't worth having is it ?

Going the whole hog for a separate Web site will still need expertise and incur costs.

Get some training off Club2000 for whoever is looking after the website aspect and see how that goes.

 

[BrizoH71]

The Web site content is down to someone at the club making best use of the templates available. IF done well it will import comp details, results and club diary quite readily. I used the system when I was our Junior Convener to create pages for our Juniors. IT takes time to keep the info up to date. If you don't keep it current it isn't worth having is it ?

Going the whole hog for a separate Web site will still need expertise and incur costs.

Get some training off Club2000 for whoever is looking after the website aspect and see how that goes.

That's the thing, web development and design and online marketing is what I do for a living; I've offered to take over the website from design through creation and host it on my own server or set up a separate server at the club. I've offered this to the club at no cost to themselves, but as Hobbit says the fear of change and lack of in-house knowledge amongst the existing committee has largely saw the proposal overlooked.

If the website and hosting is costing the club £2000 a year - i don't know the actual cost, its a figure out of the air - over and above the backend services of the online booking, competition entry and to maintain a handicap database that the club also pays for, then it is money being wasted in my book as it isn't converting prospective members or visitors.

 

[sawtooth]

We use handicap master and scores are posted to masterscoreboard automatically and at no extra cost when competitions are published.

HM do offer a website facility but our club runs it's own. With HM they will set the basic frawemwork of the site up for you but then it's very much diy after that. Its like website building for non programmers so they make it easy for you to add your own content and customise it as you wish.

HM charge £200 + Vat per annum to host this. We don't use this but I may compare the cost of our existing site, plus features, pros and cons and see what comes out on top.

I major benefit is that scores/results are integrated so no longer a requirement to extract results from the handicap system and post then up separately onto another site.

 

[351DRIVER]

IMO the gigantic rolling image is not a good design feature as you do not see the text below without having to scroll, i would prefer to see TEE TIMES FROM, VISITORS welcome CLICK whichever tab. There is no call to action instruction and a lot of text will be hidden from most viewers

A website is not generally going to get a tee time on its own, it is simply a prompt to get the viewer to call the club, sure repeat customers want the function, but the most important is the message to have first time viewers get in touch.

The original company seems to be part of the golf channel (They bought BRS golf) who had bought club systems, Golf Now basically, who are a gigantic wart on the value golf clubs have to offer.

A long video on the foot of the homepage )If anyone scrolls there on first visit is not a good idea, you scroll down and do not see the tabs that encourage links, instead you see a video.. well it is 3.5 minutes long which is LONG and you are going to send people to youtube to watch videos rather than your contact us page. A vid for a golf club should AGAIN IMO be a max 30 second drone flyover at the top that plays automatically and does not require you to scroll, keeping the contact info in view at all times

The scroll arrows on the gigantic image do not scroll, that irritates the crap out of me, slide shows for my eye are always way too slow and i always click through them

 

[Deleted member 15344]

That's the thing, web development and design and online marketing is what I do for a living; I've offered to take over the website from design through creation and host it on my own server or set up a separate server at the club. I've offered this to the club at no cost to themselves, but as Hobbit says the fear of change and lack of in-house knowledge amongst the existing committee has largely saw the proposal overlooked.

If the website and hosting is costing the club £2000 a year - i don't know the actual cost, its a figure out of the air - over and above the backend services of the online booking, competition entry and to maintain a handicap database that the club also pays for, then it is money being wasted in my book as it isn't converting prospective members or visitors.

The CS including website and hosting is around £2600-3000 a year if you have the membership and till module as well.

The website template is poor from CS - it's generic and they can't do bespoke and it doesn't help a club stand out from any other CS club. It doesn't grab anyone attention

A bespoke website either through a seperate hosting company or IG will design the website exactly how you want with no generic template

One of the big things about IG is it's personal - they will design a website exactly how you want and it's cost is minimal - if you agree to be a show site then it's free design.

 

[Oops!]

N.b., I just restarted playing golf again after a 20 years break. Second, I'm living in Germany, so I'm not familiar with British clubs.

This said, to be honest I had quite mixed emotions after having read this thread : It's quite obvious that you're suffering about the current state of your club and especially their website.

On the other hand there is a saying here : "You don't wash your dirty laundry in public!"

Imagine that one of the "old school" board members reads this - what would she/he think, what would she/he fell about it ?

I really think you were right to bring the subject up to the board committee and to discuss it with them - or at the club members general meeting, if the board committee refuses to. But IMVHO that shoul be the last resort : I think it's better to talk it over with the committee ! F. e. you could ask the board committee (or maybe better the members in private ?) why they refuse to change anything or even talk about it in spite of the fact that the club obviously is in (deep ?) trouble. BTW : Maybe they're afraid of "side effects" on your generous offer ? "Quidquid id est, time danaos et dona ferentes." ... ?

And please keep in mind that they (or even the club members at the general meeting) might not agree with you they might be confident with good cause.

Then you have to accept this, too !

 

[cliveb]

That's the thing, web development and design and online marketing is what I do for a living; I've offered to take over the website from design through creation and host it on my own server or set up a separate server at the club.

That's all very well and good, but if your club continues to use Club Systems (2000 or V1) for its handicapping and competition admin, you have the added complication of integrating your bespoke website with Club Systems/HDID so you get things like results and handicapping info fed through. And given how poor their support seems to be, it's anyone's guess how difficult that's going to be!

Also, I wouldn't have thought hosting it at the club would be a good idea unless they have some kind of industrial-strength internet connection with lots of upsteam bandwidth (that would seem wholly unnecessary for a golf club). Of course I have no idea how your own servers are hosted. One advantage of self-hosting over using a low-cost hosting service is that you'll be able to use whatever server-side technologies you want (eg. JSP, ASP) instead of being limited to something like PHP, should that be important to you.

Before I retired I was a database designer and did a lot of back-end integration of websites with databases. I will admit to being really crap at front-end desgn and making websites look pretty. But my experience with end users is that they are most interested in functionality rather than form. Provided they can easily find and access the info they require, they are fairly ambivalent about how pretty things look.

If the website and hosting is costing the club £2000 a year - i don't know the actual cost, its a figure out of the air.

My club briefly considered switching to Club Systems for its website about 18 months ago, and at the time the hosting cost was £495 per year.

 

[351DRIVER]

N.b., I just restarted playing golf again after a 20 years break. Second, I'm living in Germany, so I'm not familiar with British clubs.

This said, to be honest I had quite mixed emotions after having read this thread : It's quite obvious that you're suffering about the current state of your club and especially their website.

On the other hand there is a saying here : "You don't wash your dirty laundry in public!"

Imagine that one of the "old school" board members reads this - what would she/he think, what would she/he fell about it ?

I really think you were right to bring the subject up to the board committee and to discuss it with them - or at the club members general meeting, if the board committee refuses to. But IMVHO that shoul be the last resort : I think it's better to talk it over with the committee ! F. e. you could ask the board committee (or maybe better the members in private ?) why they refuse to change anything or even talk about it in spite of the fact that the club obviously is in (deep ?) trouble. BTW : Maybe they're afraid of "side effects" on your generous offer ? "Quidquid id est, time danaos et dona ferentes." ... ?

And please keep in mind that they (or even the club members at the general meeting) might not agree with you they might be confident with good cause.

Then you have to accept this, too !

A big problem in golf is the clubs are so slow to respond to change when it is obvious it is required, the committee culture means that although this is obviously an issue for the OP now, it may well be the season of 2018 before there are real changes implemented. I am quite a blunt person, i see no reason to be anything but and if the site sucks, i would say the site sucks and needs to be better to the club.

Washing dirty laundry in public, simple solution, get it fixed and use it as a great advert for how dynamic your club is.

 

[steadyeddy]

In would highly recommend you approach Intelligent Golf and get a cost quote from them

They will be able to do everything - build you a bespoke website that will be attractive for visitors and it will give you everything you need as a club to run your comps and membership and will be more time effective for everyone

Go onto their website and check out their sites they have built

http://www.intelligentgolf.co.uk
Cost wise it's about £1000-1300 a year more expensive than CS but it's worth every penny.

This is our website that they built and are currently finishing for us

http://www.Lbgc.co.uk

Another recommendation for intelligent golf.
We have the system & website at our club & in my opinion works great for visitors & members alike.
You can visit our website here:
http://www.coptheathgolf.co.uk

 

[Mike07]

In today's world there is ZERO excuse for a poor website. It's your clubs main source of visitors and front door.

Our clubs website is the worst I've ever seen. I'll be bringing this to their attention at the new members event as they talk the talk about wanting to generate more members and green fees, but how you you take a club seriously with a poor website.

All websites should also have high quality photography of the course. It's what we want to see!

 

[Oops!]

A big problem in golf is the clubs are so slow to respond to change when it is obvious it is required, the committee culture means that although this is obviously an issue for the OP now, it may well be the season of 2018 before there are real changes implemented. I am quite a blunt person, i see no reason to be anything but and if the site sucks, i would say the site sucks and needs to be better to the club.

Washing dirty laundry in public, simple solution, get it fixed and use it as a great advert for how dynamic your club is.

I totally agree about the fact that there has to be a change, but I disagree about the way to get there : Isn't it easier - and much more agreable, too ! - to make a good case for a revision of the website, convince board and members and work with them instead of against them ?

BTW : Sometimes people consider a blunt remark to be rude ... :mmm:

 

[BrizoH71]

I totally agree about the fact that there has to be a change, but I disagree about the way to get there : Isn't it easier - and much more agreable, too ! - to make a good case for a revision of the website, convince board and members and work with them instead of against them ?

BTW : Sometimes people consider a blunt remark to be rude ... :mmm:

Which is what I'm doing, gathering information re: cost implications, alternatives etc in order to build a case that can be presented to the committee. I'm not doing this to be contrarian, I appreciate they might say no thanks, but the website is dire and does us no favours.

 

[Oops!]

Good luck - and lots of patience ... ! :thup:

 

[351DRIVER]

Which is what I'm doing, gathering information re: cost implications, alternatives etc in order to build a case that can be presented to the committee. I'm not doing this to be contrarian, I appreciate they might say no thanks, but the website is dire and does us no favours.

The website sets my expectation of a low cost round of golf as the website looks low cost

 

[CSIDarrenWood]

Hello all,

I'd just like to add some comments to the subject of this thread.

Club Systems has been working with and listening to golf clubs since 1982 and now offer an unparralleled array of software, products and services specifically designed for the golf club industry. The templated website in use at Pumpherston GC is designed to be cost effective and easy to maintain. There is now a responsive version of our templated site that is designed to look great on any device, take a look at www.sandmoorgolf.co.uk for an example. We also recognise that in some cases a golf club may want a more bespoke website so we can now offer this service too through Yumax Group, the first site at Alton Golf Club due to go live very shortly. In addition to this we also work with golf clubs that choose thier own, 3rd party website provider using a product called CSiHub. This gives all the integration members need through a single login. Check out the members login page of www.eastdevongolfclub.co.uk

We really do have an option for everyone and everyones budget however we cannot be responsible for the content of the website, this is purely down to the golf club itself. Our websites come with training during the installation and further one to one training is available to help make best use of the product.

I'm not sure why there are negative comments regarding our support team and if anyone has any examples of issues they have had I'd love to hear from you so we can look into it further, please drop me a private message. We currently offer telephone support to golf clubs 365 days a year, 8am to 8pm 7 days a week (9am Sunday) as well as email support for less urgent enquiries.

For the golfer using HowDidiDo we offer email support 7 days a week. HowDidiDo has not only been given a facelift it has been completely redesigned to be responsive on any device and is now available as a smartphone app via the App Store and Google Play. If you haven't tried the new site take a look at www.howdidido.com and definitely get downloading the app! Both are designed around a timeline that is quickly becoming the must have sports app for every club golfer.

We really do care about the golf clubs we work with and support so if anyone feels they may not have the right product for them or has anything they need to discuss please let me know and an account manager will be in contact.

Happy golfing!
Darren
Relationship Manager

 

[Deleted member 15344]

1. CS still relies on a 2nd Party website ( HDID) to display results to members which is extremely poor responsive especially on a Saturday night

2. With other systems like IG it's all on one website - just one link for the website then onto the members area still on the same website , it's more productive for both members and especially administrators with no need for different modules, it's just one. We looked at CSI Hub and it's just a link to HDID and a redirect.

3. We spoke to CSI about a bespoke website over the last 12 months and they couldn't give us what we needed or required as a visitors website - IG straight away said we could have whatever we wanted and it would all be integrated into one single website.

4. Support - well over the last two years I can't ever recall a time when I have ever waited in a queue for less than 15 mins listening to someone say I'm number one in the queue. And then when I have had one of the multiple errors with the system the person supporting appeared to be reading off a crib sheet and every time had to go away and I was waiting because the system wasn't working. Any time I have needed to speak to IG support it's been straight to someone who helps out straight away in the two calls I have had to make as opposed to a weekly basis. We have a personal relationship with them from day one - even simple things like knowing our first names gives it that personal touch.

Every single person who now uses IG agrees that the improvements are both in time and financial gains - our treasurer , pro , office staff , ladies , seniors , bar staff and most importantly the members - just little things like live scoring and entering the scores on their mobile as they go round , syncing with calendars in IOS or Google or Outlook - the ability to set up every single possible combination of golf comp all from the comfort of my sofa and for the members it's all in own area - our club website.

This is just my own feelings after having used CS for 6 years doing comps and having now gone through the migration away from CS

 

[Fyldewhite]

Have to agree with Phil. Appreciate it's your job Darren but we moved to HandicapMaster 6/7 years ago. Different vendor but pretty much the same story. Much better reliable, stable and intuitive software, better results publishing service, not getting screwed for expensive (and archaic) hardware solutions.......oh, and around half the cost after year 1. Keep plugging, but if you hadn't cornered the market early doors, and a market that is very averse to change you would have gone under years ago. All IMHO of course.