Blm-Renaming the masters

[chrisd]

And how do they learn it?

From other people

 

[Papas1982]

And how do they learn it? I doubt it's via interpretive dance, or semaphore - I suspect its more likely to be via "words". Words matter. And thinking they don't is part of the problem.

But in terms of changing the name of the tournament - yes, I agree its silly. Someone is just trying to wind up an argument. And it looks like they are suceeding in winding one up?

Teaching kids that certain words are wring is better than attempting to remove the word from existence.

 

[Diamond]

Papas is right

Changing words and history will not bring us racial equality it needs to be done in school years where kids should be told about equality in a way that they learn that anyone different is not an excuse to treat them differently. Discrimination is, imo, mostly bought out in kids by their parents who carry racist views from their own childhoods, then spread their views like a coronavirus. 3 year old kids in nursery dont see difference of colour, sex or even physical appearance in their playmates, they are not born racist, sexist, homophobic etc they learn it, and they can learn that these views are wrong but, I'm sorry, changing words, history etc is not going to bring change, in fact may even make matters worse - but education can!

Just my opinion though

It is 2020 and we do not have racial equality. Education is why people want these things changed. They have realised entire cities were built on the slave trade, roads named after slave traders, prestigious clubs with no racial equality, the same clubs with tournaments named after deep rooted racism. Education is why we are at this crossroads. History is being rewritten but we need golf clubs, football clubs, large corporations to be owned by BAME. Then we will see the change that should have come decades ago.

 

[Papas1982]

It is 2020 and we do not have racial equality. Education is why people want these things changed. They have realised entire cities were built on the slave trade, roads named after slave traders, prestigious clubs with no racial equality, the same clubs with tournaments named after deep rooted racism. Education is why we are at this crossroads. History is being rewritten but we need golf clubs, football clubs, large corporations to be owned by BAME. Then we will see the change that should have come decades ago.

those things can’t happen overnight though. If we accept that opportunities for Bame have only really improved in say the last 10 years then it’s gonna take some time for people to get to the top of their fields. I perso ally don’t agreed with positive discrimination either.
That being said, none of that has anything to do with changing the name of a word because one of its many uses relates to slavery.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

It is 2020 and we do not have racial equality. Education is why people want these things changed. They have realised entire cities were built on the slave trade, roads named after slave traders, prestigious clubs with no racial equality, the same clubs with tournaments named after deep rooted racism. Education is why we are at this crossroads. History is being rewritten but we need golf clubs, football clubs, large corporations to be owned by BAME. Then we will see the change that should have come decades ago.

If you mean The Masters then you are wrong it was not called that for racist reasons.

It was meant to reflect that the level of skill of those who were invited were the masters of their sport.

 

[Diamond]

If you mean The Masters then you are wrong it was not called that for racist reasons.

It was meant to reflect that the level of skill of those who were invited were the masters of their sport.

The Masters is played at a golf club which banned black players from being members. This only changed in the 90s.
Women were only allowed to be members in 2012. Black players were barred from entering the masters until the 70s and it was an old tradition for the tournament to only have black caddies.
The Masters is what this deep rooted racism has been based around.

 

[Papas1982]

The Masters is played at a golf club which banned black players from being members. This only changed in the 90s.
Women were only allowed to be members in 2012. Black players were barred from entering the masters until the 70s and it was an old tradition for the tournament to only have black caddies.
The Masters is what this deep rooted racism has been based around.

Nobody is saying the event or state doesn't have issues re racism, but the name has no basis in that racism.calling it "The pretty course with lots of flowers" wouldn't change the racist undertones.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

The Masters is played at a golf club which banned black players from being members. This only changed in the 90s.
Women were only allowed to be members in 2012. Black players were barred from entering the masters until the 70s and it was an old tradition for the tournament to only have black caddies.
The Masters is what this deep rooted racism has been based around.

Yes but surely the fact that the Masters is now open to any golfer that meets the standard, regardless of race should be applauded,
The caddy issue is history, the white boiler suit thing is a quirk, but is the same for everyone.

I don’t understand why organisations and events that have changed are still getting criticism

 

[chrisd]

It is 2020 and we do not have racial equality. Education is why people want these things changed. They have realised entire cities were built on the slave trade, roads named after slave traders, prestigious clubs with no racial equality, the same clubs with tournaments named after deep rooted racism. Education is why we are at this crossroads. History is being rewritten but we need golf clubs, football clubs, large corporations to be owned by BAME. Then we will see the change that should have come decades ago.

Being now quite elderly I can assure you that things have changed radically since the 1950's that I can remember and grew up in. Theres still a way to go, it will take a fair time but re writing history will not make changes come only education will do that. BAME can own golf clubs, football clubs, large corporations but, again , changing history wont bring it about.

 

[Diamond]

Yes but surely the fact that the Masters is now open to any golfer that meets the standard, regardless of race should be applauded,
The caddy issue is history, the white boiler suit thing is a quirk, but is the same for everyone.

I don’t understand why organisations and events that have changed are still getting criticism

We can see on the TV that things have not changed in America. As for Augusta the first black golfer was allowed to play in the 70‘s, is this when the organisation changed? Or was it 2 decades later when they allowed black members?

Like I said in a previous post it will take more than a name change to eradicate the deep rooted racism still in society. But if an organisation is truly equal why would it not take every opportunity to show that publicly?

As for changing history that is impossible as it has been and gone, changing the present to make the future better is what must happen.

 

[Diamond]

Being now quite elderly I can assure you that things have changed radically since the 1950's that I can remember and grew up in. Theres still a way to go, it will take a fair time but re writing history will not make changes come only education will do that. BAME can own golf clubs, football clubs, large corporations but, again , changing history wont bring it about.

The terms used for people of African American dissent back in the 1950s I still here, and have heard for 40 years, in sports and social clubs. The difference is that it is done behind people’s backs which is worse than to someone’s face. These words are heard by all and no one protests, no one corrects and no one educates the offender.

Education is why we have protests in London based on a person killed in the USA. Education is why people are questioning the Masters and suggesting a name change. Why it was called The Masters is now a moot point. The whole back history of the club and tournament has been unearthed and if changing the name makes those silly old buggers in the social clubs take notice and learn something then I am all for it.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

We can see on the TV that things have not changed in America. As for Augusta the first black golfer was allowed to play in the 70‘s, is this when the organisation changed? Or was it 2 decades later when they allowed black members?

Like I said in a previous post it will take more than a name change to eradicate the deep rooted racism still in society. But if an organisation is truly equal why would it not take every opportunity to show that publicly?

As for changing history that is impossible as it has been and gone, changing the present to make the future better is what must happen.

So show me how The Masters is racist now
I’m not talking America as a whole , just The Masters

 

[Papas1982]

The terms used for people of African American dissent back in the 1950s I still here, and have heard for 40 years, in sports and social clubs. The difference is that it is done behind people’s backs which is worse than to someone’s face. These words are heard by all and no one protests, no one corrects and no one educates the offender.

Education is why we have protests in London based on a person killed in the USA. Education is why people are questioning the Masters and suggesting a name change. Why it was called The Masters is now a moot point. The whole back history of the club and tournament has been unearthed and if changing the name makes those silly old buggers in the social clubs take notice and learn something then I am all for it.

1, No it isn't.
The whole OP was about the name and changing it because of the words meaning. Not the clubs history.

I'd like to hear from one person who has been oppressed and if a name change would in anyway change their feelings?

2, forgetting the tired stereotype, those people really aren't the target for change. As you said, it's about education. Concentrate on current and future generations. Changing 1 old persons mind is harder work than keeping racism out of the minds of 100 young kids.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I wonder how many black members they have.

I believe Condolesa Rice is a member which was major on two fronts. I'd be surprised if the numbers reached double figures though.

 

[Papas1982]

I wonder how many black members they have.

I'd hazard a guess at not many. It's an exclusive club with only 300 members, most of which are wealthy businessmen. Society (not Augusta) has dictated that is a predominantly white male genre.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

I wonder how many black members they have.

I do not know the answer to that, but as long as being non white isn’t a bar to membership then there isn’t a problem

 

[PhilTheFragger]

I wonder how many black members they have.

I’d like to be a member at Wentworth, but unfortunately I’m not earning enough,

Got nothing to do with the colour of my skin, just how it is

 

[chrisd]

The terms used for people of African American dissent back in the 1950s I still here, and have heard for 40 years, in sports and social clubs. The difference is that it is done behind people’s backs which is worse than to someone’s face. These words are heard by all and no one protests, no one corrects and no one educates the offender.

Education is why we have protests in London based on a person killed in the USA. Education is why people are questioning the Masters and suggesting a name change. Why it was called The Masters is now a moot point. The whole back history of the club and tournament has been unearthed and if changing the name makes those silly old buggers in the social clubs take notice and learn something then I am all for it.

Sorry, I really do disagree. It's still there, but no where near the level of the late 50's. I work at a social club and we have various minority groups come in and its usually between their own that any trouble comes, and I include UK white guys In that. I do occasionally hear racist words and people ARE corrected by their fellow members, but the problem is it wont go away by trying to educate some thick person who's spouted this bile for most of his life but if you can get to his kids and educate them you do stand a chance.

I do also feel that some groups dont help themselves as much as they could, my golf club have quite a few Nepalese golfers now, but they almost all only play in their own groups as they do at snooker in my social club too. They are always cheery, speak and are really pleasant people but they dont mix

 

[Papas1982]

You never have to worry about the colour of your skin, Phil, that's the point.

I have no idea how many black members Augusta has, but it does seem a pertinent question.

I’m sorry, but how is the membership of a club relevant?

whats the core demographic of the area? Then what percentage of those are wealthy enough to be local members?

 

[Papas1982]

It's one variable in the calculation. If it's disproportionately low when other factors are taken into account it's very relevant.

Obviously.

But none of us have a clue. So it’s another stick to beat the club with based purely on speculation.

imo there will be very few bame members, but it will be due to societys issues (less mega rich bame) than anything else.
Didnt Bill Gates struggle to get membership?
if there were more than 10 black members it be surprised.