Blair - He's got alot to answer for......

[Foxholer]

...
I have no issues with Tony Blair and his actions- he did the right thing at the time. Hindsight hand wringers will always come out when things dont work out exactly as planned. At least he had the strength to make a decision and stick with it.

I do!

It might have been a 'good' thing to do, but it was illegal!

He chose to justify it on very flaky 'intelligence' about the possibility of WMDs; was told that intelligence was wrong - by experts in that area - one of whom was hounded to suicide! That death should always be on his concsience - more so imo than any involved in the actual war!

And he still appears to be in 'spin'/PR mode rather than achieving actual peace in the region!

 

[Foxholer]

Sorry but if he lied then you will expect him to gain war crime charges

He acted on intelligence given to him - the intelligence ended up not being correct

If you want to accuse him of lying in regards Iraq then prove it.

They did find sites where WMD were housed at certain stages

The Iraq enquiry, by Sir John Chilcot, appears to be critical of him, as he has been sent a 'warning'/Salmond letter as is the custom these days. Report is yet to be released. Here's a view of the evidence provided by one of the Military folk involved! http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/wmd-dossier-was-sexed-up-iraq-128286

No, lying doesn't necessarily mean an official 'war criminal' charge! Though many describe him as one!

Iraq certainly had WMDs during the period when US was supporting Saddam, so they would have been housed somewhere. UN Weapons Inspectors never found any - even when they were given free rein to the country and documentation! That was all a bluff by Saddam, that was (illegally) called!

 

[Sweep]

Sorry but if he lied then you will expect him to gain war crime charges

He acted on intelligence given to him - the intelligence ended up not being correct

If you want to accuse him of lying in regards Iraq then prove it.

They did find sites where WMD were housed at certain stages

I wouldn't expect for a minute that he will end up on war crimes charges, just like I wouldn't expect George W Bush to stand trial in The Hague either. TBH I am not sure lying to take a country to war counts as a war crime.
Even Peter Hain said in the debate on air strikes against ISIS that we were taken to war on a lie. Have you ever heard of the dodgy dossier?

 

[AlexDarling]

I do!

It might have been a 'good' thing to do, but it was illegal!

He chose to justify it on very flaky 'intelligence' about the possibility of WMDs; was told that intelligence was wrong - by experts in that area - one of whom was hounded to suicide! That death should always be on his concsience - more so imo than any involved in the actual war!

And he still appears to be in 'spin'/PR mode rather than achieving actual peace in the region!

in hindsight!

He also had experts say the intelligence was right!

It would be a different scenario if the WMD's were there or worse, were used and he hadn't acted.


Hindsight really is a wonderful thing.

 

[Ethan]

not only depth but money- lots of money and a massive army.


I have no issues with Tony Blair and his actions- he did the right thing at the time. Hindsight hand wringers will always come out when things dont work out exactly as planned. At least he had the strength to make a decision and stick with it.

It isn't hindsight hand wringers. Do you remember huge marches in London at the time?

As for things not working out as planned, there was no plan. Which was part of the problem. There was a lot of hubris and stored vengeance. Then after it all ends up destabilising the entire region, Bliar is made a Middle East peace envoy. Irony indeed.

Now Bliar wants the UK to do it all over again because he sees militant Islam as such a big threat. He helped make it such a bloody big threat. Maybe someone should drone him, that might save some lives in the future.

 

[AlexDarling]

It isn't hindsight hand wringers. Do you remember huge marches in London at the time?

As for things not working out as planned, there was no plan. Which was part of the problem. There was a lot of hubris and stored vengeance. Then after it all ends up destabilising the entire region, Bliar is made a Middle East peace envoy. Irony indeed.

Now Bliar wants the UK to do it all over again because he sees militant Islam as such a big threat. He helped make it such a bloody big threat. Maybe someone should drone him, that might save some lives in the future.

can you link to the evidence of that please?

As for marches, there are marches even when a TV programme gets cancelled!

You are very clearly against Blair as you change his name spelling any chance you get! so there is probably not much worth in discussing this with you as you appear to have a very closed mind and state apparent facts with no evidence.

 

[delc]

As for marches, there are marches even when a TV programme gets cancelled!

You are very clearly against Blair as you change his name spelling any chance you get! so there is probably not much worth in discussing this with you as you appear to have a very closed mind and state apparent facts with no evidence.

Not marches with 3 million people turning out to demonstrate there aren't!

Tony Blair was just a scoundrel and a career politician (often the two are the same). After completing his PPE degree he just tossed a coin and decided to join the Labour Party. I suppose he made them electable again, and was a good PR man, but that was about the limits of his abilities as far as I am concerned. He didn't need to declare war on Iraq, didn't listen to the objections of a sizeable majority of the UK population, and ultimately paid the political price. Unfortunately he has since made a vast fortune on the lecture circuit in the US and though other business dealings. Life isn't always fair! :angry:

 

[Foxholer]

Not marches with 3 million people turning out to demonstrate there aren't!
...

Unless you can substantiate that claim - from an unbiased source- you are just as guilty of spin as those that created the 'dodgy dossier'!

Can you do so?

The estimates I have seen, while large, are by no means that large!

 

[delc]

Unless you can substantiate that claim - from an unbiased source- you are just as guilty of spin as those that created the 'dodgy dossier'!

Can you do so?

Widely reported at the time as being between 2 million and 3 million people in London and other cities. I was on the London march and believe me, there were an awful lot of people there of all political persuasions!

 

[AlexDarling]

Widely reported at the time as being between 2 million and 3 million people in London and other cities. I was on the London march and believe me, there were an awful lot of people there of all political persuasions!

I heard there was 24,764 in London- I was there and it seemed like 5 million but I'm glad it wasn't widely reported that way incorrectly

However, you/we digress, the numbers on your march are irrelevant, the facts are he acted as a Prime Minister should and made a decision. He's not the first and wont be the last to have the hounds baying for him after the event. He gets big bucks but thats for having to make big decisions.

 

[Beezerk]

Is it fair just to blame Blair?
Any Prime Minister, Labour, Tory, Raving Loony would have followed the Yanks into Iraq, that's the plain simple truth

 

[Foxholer]

Widely reported at the time as being between 2 million and 3 million people in London and other cities. I was on the London march and believe me, there were an awful lot of people there of all political persuasions!

So an admission that you've 'sexed up' the numbers!

While the consequences are far less, the 'dishonesty' (note the quotes) is the same!

 

[delc]

Is it fair just to blame Blair?
Any Prime Minister, Labour, Tory, Raving Loony would have followed the Yanks into Iraq, that's the plain simple truth

Didn't have to! Could have just allowed the US to use air bases in the UK if they wanted to go ahead with this war. Tony Blair almost single-handedly persuaded Parliament to vote in favour of this war. We sort of assumed at the time that he knew more than he was letting on, and more than the rest of us knew, but this has since been proved to be not the case. I often wonder if Dr David Kelly was killed by the intelligence services on the direct orders of Tony Blair (or maybe the CIA), because he was contradicting what Blair was claiming!

Apart from anything else, participating in this war diminished the UK's ability to defend itself, because we discharged most of our ordnance and modern weapons (cruise missiles, smart bombs, etc) onto Iraq in a fairly short period. :angry:

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Didn't have to! Could have just allowed the US to use air bases in the UK if they wanted to go ahead with this war. Tony Blair almost single-handedly persuaded Parliament to vote in favour of this war. We sort of assumed at the time that he knew more than he was letting on, and more than the rest of us knew, but this has since been proved to be not the case. I often wonder if Dr David Kelly was killed by the intelligence services on the direct orders of Tony Blair (or maybe the CIA), because he was contradicting what Blair was claiming!

Apart from anything else, participating in this war diminished the UK's ability to defend itself, because we discharged most of our ordnance and modern weapons (cruise missiles, smart bombs, etc) onto Iraq in a fairly short period. :angry:

Can you back that up please with facts and proof or is it anothrr unsubstantial claim along with your others because you are talking nonsense

 

[Foxholer]

... I often wonder if Dr David Kelly was killed by the intelligence services on the direct orders of Tony Blair (or maybe the CIA), because he was contradicting what Blair was claiming!

The Coroner's report and The Hutton Inquiry concluded that it was suicide!

To consider it as anything else is pure fantasy. That he was driven to it by the oppression of the 'government machine' is without doubt! I don't believe Hutton covered that sufficiently.

 

[delc]

Can you back that up please with facts and proof or is it anothrr unsubstantial claim along with your others because you are talking nonsense

So I suppose you think that the UK has unlimited stockpiles of cruise missiles and smart bombs! I was told by a friend in the defence industry that it would take at least five years to replace what was used up in the Iraq war at normal rates of procurement, and in the meantime we would have a severe shortage of such weapons!

 

[delc]

The Coroner's report and The Hutton Inquiry concluded that it was suicide!

To consider it as anything else is pure fantasy. That he was driven to it by the oppression of the 'government machine' is without doubt! I don't believe Hutton covered that sufficiently.

The paramedics who attended the scene thought there was far too little blood around for somebody who was alleged to have cut his wrists and then bled to death! Also no fingerprints found on the knife that was supposedly used to inflict the cuts, or on the bottle containing the tablets he allegedly took. :mmm:

 

[Foxholer]

The paramedics who attended the scene thought there was far too little blood around for somebody who was alleged to have cut his wrists and then bled to death! Also no fingerprints found on the knife that was supposedly used to inflict the cuts. :mmm:

I repeat, the Coroner and Hutton Inquiry concluded Suicide! They had all the evidence, including that of the paramedics.

You are a fantacist/conspiracy theorist to consider anything else! His evidence had already been (wrongly) 'discredited' by the oppressive spin of Campbell et al!

 

[delc]

I repeat, the Coroner and Hutton Inquiry concluded Suicide! They had all the evidence, including that of the paramedics.

You are a fantacist/conspiracy theorist to consider anything else! His evidence had already been (wrongly) 'discredited' by the oppressive spin of Campbell et al!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fingerprint-doubt-over-kelly-suicide-513450

 

[AlexDarling]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fingerprint-doubt-over-kelly-suicide-513450

again, another theory by a lone politician.

Even his wife said she is certain he committed suicide.