Bifurcation......do we or don't we?

[Imurg]

With the new rule changes coming in from Tuesday it struck me that some of them will have little use on the Pro Tours compared to ours.
An example is the flag in rule - Your Pros have a caddy to remove or tend the flag and unless Bryson can show that keeping the flag in provides a real advantage I can't see many Pros changing tack on that one.
Also, with the use of spikeless shoes almost universally on tour, there's little chance of any man-made damage to greens that needs to be repaired other than pitch marks.
The OOB/Lost ball local rule also isn't intended for the Pro game.

So is it time for bifurcation?
Play and equipment?
A set of rules for the tour pro and elite amateur and a different set for the rest of us?
Obviously many rules would coexist but with specific differences.

I think it's probably time.
Pros get huge help from the technology designed to help us but we get a fraction of the gains that they do.
Rules that we use every round, they may not use them all year

They already have certain rules that we don't have - or at least tournament rules.

The Pros play a different game to us and have done for a long time. And anyone who thinks they don't should ask themselves when they last hit 3wood carry of 270 yards over water to a pin 12 paces on and stop the ball a few feet from the hole.
It's time they had their own set of rules and we had ours.

 

[Homer]

No thanks. I want to play the same game they do, albeit not quite as well.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Absolutely agree!

After all when we play at a Tour or Open venue we aren't playing from the same tees as the pros and the green speed and pin positions will be different.

If the Tours and rules makers feel that tournament golf can be improved by rule changes then they should go ahead and introduce different rules.

IMO bifurcation will not be detrimental to the recreational golfer

 

[jim8flog]

When it comes to equipment there would be a big outcry from the manufacturers because they give it free to the Pros so we can buy the same equipment at massive cost.

I reckon you would see more pros wearing spikes than amateurs.

The pros game is not so far removed from top and low single figure or plus figure amateurs as you seem to think. How is a very good am going to compare themselves against a pro if they have different equipment.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

When it comes to equipment there would be a big outcry from the manufacturers because they give it free to the Pros so we can buy the same equipment at massive cost.

I reckon you would see more pros wearing spikes than amateurs.

The pros game is not so far removed from top and low single figure or plus figure amateurs as you seem to think. How is a very good am going to compare themselves against a pro if they have different equipment.

A low single figure handicap player is as far removed from the Tour players as a National League footballer is from a Premier League player.

There's no reason why any new rules could not be applied to Elite Amateur competitions.

 

[Homer]

A low single figure handicap player is as far removed from the Tour players as a National League footballer is from a Premier League player.

There's no reason why any new rules could not be applied to Elite Amateur competitions.

So an improving golfer with talent - at what point do they switch to the ‘other’ Rules to see if they they can play with the big boys?

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I don't think there needs to be different rules, but maybe a "pro" only ball that doesn't travel as far might be a good idea.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Slightly off tack , but I think it relevant in that we are talking about the differences between the pro game and us amateurs game.
I have often thought but not seen any comment on golf tv ,or elsewhere , on just what score the pros would make if they played the game as we do!
Meaning - No ball spotters on the strategic points on the course: no tv cameras to assist where the ball went:no spectators to do the same ball spotting ,and finding ,and stopping the ball from finding unplayable positions etc.
I reckon that pros hitting 300 yd drives "off piste " would be hard put to find their ball alone, so easily, and 3 off the tee would be a lot more common.
So, maybe 3 or 4 more shots per round?
What do you think?😀

 

[Swinglowandslow]

So an improving golfer with talent - at what point do they switch to the ‘other’ Rules to see if they they can play with the big boys?

A very good point. Overall, I think the 2019 rules have struck a good balance

 

[Wolf]

I don't think we should have bifurcation, I like the fact we play the same game to same game to the same rules. I don't think we need to limit the ball they use, to many connotations for manufacturers and at what point does an amateur stop using our equipment and start using Pro equipment etc.

Personally I think the only thing in Pro game that needs addressing is course set up. Course don't need to be longer either they just need to stop being so wide open and promote shot making and thought. Le Golf National was a superb example of being the fairways in and raise the rough it stopped guys from taking driver and made them plot and plan their way round or wedge out of trouble. That's just my opinion though.

 

[Beedee]

Slightly off tack , but I think it relevant in that we are talking about the differences between the pro game and us amateurs game.
I have often thought but not seen any comment on golf tv ,or elsewhere , on just what score the pros would make if they played the game as we do!
😀

While I agree it would be interesting - playing courses with real rough too - can you imagine how many hours it would take if pros had to search for their own balls and rake their own bunkers?

 

[pendodave]

It always surprised me that there isn't a market for non approved kit. Large numbers of golfers play a few times a year with mates and don't maintain a handicap. Why can't they just buy and use juiced gear to make the game easier?

As for the pros, I'm not sure what the answer is, but drive and wedge golf is boring as anything to watch. Something needs to be done to bring more skill to the game at their level.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

While I agree it would be interesting - playing courses with real rough too - can you imagine how many hours it would take if pros had to search for their own balls and rake their own bunkers?

Oh , I am not advocating that the pros do "play like we do", that would be both undesirable and impossible- it is a spectator sport at that level, etc.
I was merely speculating what differences there would be in their scores etc and the fact that I've never heard it commented on.
It would IMO lessen the gap between them and top amateurs though!

 

[Blue in Munich]

It has been time to bifurcate for a while. The reason we don't; equipment manufacturers in my opinion. They rely on the fact that we all play the same gear to justify their huge payments to pros which in turn feeds the ridiculous advertising claims that keeps the big bucks rolling in. The moment we bifurcate that disappears and they will struggle to balance the books. Unfortunately the manufacturers and not the rules authorities run the game and have done for some time; the Ping grooves ruling was all the proof of that you'll ever need. Meanwhile more and more decent courses will become redundant as manufacturers find new ways to increase distance.

As to playing the same game, we haven't for some time and the gap is only widening. Play a championship course and look to see where the elite amateur and pro tees are compared with the normal white tees. Anyone who thinks otherwise is jus kidding themselves.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I don’t see the need to split the rules up - do other sports have different baseline rules between a pro game and am game ?

Why should golf ? What’s the purpose of having two sets or rules ?

Currently each competition can set out its guidelines and we of course have Handicap rules we follow - why make it more complicated by having a differing set of rules ? Imagine little Johnny seeing the pros playing to one set and then getting all confused having to figure out a different set when he plays with his mates

And a lot of the rules brought in will affect the pro game

Flag in or out - pros will leave the flag in at times
Dropping height
Search time
Shot time
Ready golf as well

Of course the rules are going to be applied and affected the pro game .

What exactly would be achieved by having two separate rules ?

 

[Dan2501]

Definitely not. Just make golf courses harder for the Tour Pros, and the emphasis should be on the word harder, not necessarily longer. Proper golf courses still stand up to the Tour Pros, the issue is only prevalent on the generic PGA Tour events where the big boys can bomb it without having to worry about the consequences. Certain rules are okay, but equipment does not need to change, golf course architecture just needs to evolve and be braver.

 

[Grant85]

With the new rule changes coming in from Tuesday it struck me that some of them will have little use on the Pro Tours compared to ours.
An example is the flag in rule - Your Pros have a caddy to remove or tend the flag and unless Bryson can show that keeping the flag in provides a real advantage I can't see many Pros changing tack on that one.
Also, with the use of spikeless shoes almost universally on tour, there's little chance of any man-made damage to greens that needs to be repaired other than pitch marks.
The OOB/Lost ball local rule also isn't intended for the Pro game.

So is it time for bifurcation?
Play and equipment?
A set of rules for the tour pro and elite amateur and a different set for the rest of us?
Obviously many rules would coexist but with specific differences.

I think it's probably time.
Pros get huge help from the technology designed to help us but we get a fraction of the gains that they do.
Rules that we use every round, they may not use them all year

They already have certain rules that we don't have - or at least tournament rules.

The Pros play a different game to us and have done for a long time. And anyone who thinks they don't should ask themselves when they last hit 3wood carry of 270 yards over water to a pin 12 paces on and stop the ball a few feet from the hole.
It's time they had their own set of rules and we had ours.

I’m not for bifurcation. I used to not care much, but I am now against it 100%.

I agree that the Pros play a different game and there is a case that we simply get them to play harder courses. Which they generally do already.

Move the tees wider, if you can’t move them back and therefore make the targets smaller. Narrow the fairways. Tuck the pins away. Move some bunkers up on regular tour stops so that they are in play etc. All things that the R&A and USGA do for their respective Opens.

I heard Brandel Chamblee on the NLU podcast raise a very good point. For young amateurs at clubs, they will be playing the Amatuer game with their own equipment. At some point they will have to make a decision as to whether they should play with the pro equipment. It will be very difficult to decide the cut off when events go from using amatuer equimpent to pro equimpent. Likewise for the young amateurs potentially having to practice with pro equipment but not wanting to handicap themselves in competition and so switching to amatuer equipment.

I do think they could do something with the ball that stops it travelling quite as far, but would reduce the impact for the shorter players. So say a guy who currently drives it 200 might have hardly any impact, but Dustin Johnson is suddenly brought back from 335 to 315.

As well as negating the need to build cou4ses for Tour players, it would also condense the fields and make a lot of pro events much more exciting. Look at Carnoustie when distance was not a factor. 8 to 10 guys in with a genuine chance on the Sunday to win and a very watchable event.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Slightly off tack , but I think it relevant in that we are talking about the differences between the pro game and us amateurs game.
I have often thought but not seen any comment on golf tv ,or elsewhere , on just what score the pros would make if they played the game as we do!
Meaning - No ball spotters on the strategic points on the course: no tv cameras to assist where the ball went:no spectators to do the same ball spotting ,and finding ,and stopping the ball from finding unplayable positions etc.
I reckon that pros hitting 300 yd drives "off piste " would be hard put to find their ball alone, so easily, and 3 off the tee would be a lot more common.
So, maybe 3 or 4 more shots per round?
What do you think?😀

You really don't seem to appreciate the difference between the Tour pro's and the rest.

In recent we have had two members progress to the European Tour and one to the web.com. The highest of their 3 handicaps when turning pro was plus4 and none of them have found life easy.

Around their home course, off the back tees 6600 yards, par 71, SSS 71 they regularly scored 65/66.

One holds the course record 62 and that was without the benefit of spotters.

It's not just about 300 yards driving, these guys practise their putting for example for 4 and 5 hours at a time.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

So an improving golfer with talent - at what point do they switch to the ‘other’ Rules to see if they they can play with the big boys?

When they are good enough to play in events like the Brabazon Trophy, Amateur Championship etc;

 

[Swinglowandslow]

You really don't seem to appreciate the difference between the Tour pro's and the rest.

.

You are not really in a position to believe what I appreciate: I certainly do know that successful tour pros are the best.However, you can't deny, if you regularly watch the televised tour events, that there are quite a few hits made by the players where the ball would have been lost had the only people to be present and watching the ball were those stood on the tee. And if the ball is lost then that is two extra shots- something of a disaster for a pro.

But, keep it lighthearted, it's only a game😀