Bifurcation......do we or don't we?

[Deleted member 18588]

So if I’m not quite good enough yet but


Oh please get in the real world. Have you ever looked at a run of the mill pro’s clubs? Same clubs just custome fit better.

Funnily enough I have on many occasions and I agree some use clubs not that far removed from the standard issue.

However, if you had bothered to read my post you would have seen specific reference to the "top" players and, I would suggest, they are the ones against whom the Club golfer chooses to compare.

No one plays a Tour venue and comments on where the player in 100th position in the RTD hits it. They do however recall what club a top player hit from that position.

 

[Wolf]

We saw bomb and gouge beaten in the Ryder Cup with the current rules and a course set up to reward good play. But why can't there be a few bomber's holes and a few holes tightened up at bomber's distance? Why can't length be rewarded, it is after all a skill?

Yes put a limit to technology, and to a certain extent its already there with MOI limits, club size limits and ball limits. However, I'm quite happy to see a Dustin Johnson bomb it over a bunker. Its when every pro can do it that there's a problem.

Absolutely 100% agree with that, tighten the courses up, but then allow for the odd bomb and wedge. Make it an even playing field then the players that are straighter get the advantage on tight penal holes and the bombers get it back on the shorter holes but also allows the others to open their shoulders if they want to give it a go. Is that really any different then from the golf of the Faldo, Seve, Norman type eras where some were long some were shot makers but both equally had to accept to play sensible on some holes and then go for it on others. JHaving be at the Ryder cup this year there were holes where they could go at it a bit and others they couldn't and that really leveled the field.

Don't need longer courses, don't need shorter balls or bifurcation, we simply need someone to set the courses up accordingly.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Do we have some examples then please? Tour choppers and not Rory please - thanks.

Here's the original post from MM, I've bolded the particularly relevant bit;

"But is that not one of the great myths of modern golf, certainly as far as the very top players are concerned.

No matter what is stamped on the sole of their clubs neither you nor I could purchase the same."

Why are Rory, Tiger, Retief or similar banned as examples when that was exactly the type of player mentioned? MM didn't mention tour choppers as you disrespectfully refer to them, but you try to change his original point to start an argument. Sounds suspiciously like someone who recently left here...

 

[Blue in Munich]

We saw bomb and gouge beaten in the Ryder Cup with the current rules and a course set up to reward good play. But why can't there be a few bomber's holes and a few holes tightened up at bomber's distance? Why can't length be rewarded, it is after all a skill?

Yes put a limit to technology, and to a certain extent its already there with MOI limits, club size limits and ball limits. However, I'm quite happy to see a Dustin Johnson bomb it over a bunker. Its when every pro can do it that there's a problem.

Length is a skill that should be rewarded; in a straight line. Greg Norman's stint as world No. 1 was based on being the longest straightest driver of his era, and I have no issue with that. My issue is with the straight overpowering of a course with scant regard to where the ball finished. Norman was looking to end up in the fairway.

To a degree I agree with your post Brian, but I think we are further towards the latter scenario than the former. Personally I think the Dustins should be in a minority, but it seems that they are becoming more of a majority.

 

[Grant85]

I think before we say that the game needs changing to accommodate the ability of pro's we need to look at what the winning scores are. Are pro's murdering championship courses, or are the winning scores pretty much the same as they were 40+years ago?

And then there's the argument of do spectators want to see birdies and eagles or pars winning comps? Do they want to see 300+yd drives or 250yd drives? And do amateurs want to be able to relate to pro's using the same equipment?

Let the pro's carry on as they are, and let the winning scores be what they will be. Lets be honest, with the yardages of most championship courses, most of the field in any competition isn't murdering the course.

I don’t care about how far guys hit it, but I’d like to see more courses where it is difficult to hit it as far and laying up is a legitimate strategy.

Yes, by all means give them an option to bomb it 330 but they should have to hit just an accurate a shot as someone hitting it 290. This brings far more guys into contention and makes for a more exciting event.

A lot of courses on the PGA tour, they have a business plan which involves getting their venue on the tour and then charging golfers $300 a game and no doubt a few grand onto their membership fees.

Doing that and then having the pros struggling to make pars is not necessarily going to help with that business plan. But someone making 35 birdies over 72 holes might be a bit more appealing.

 

[clubchamp98]

I don’t care about how far guys hit it, but I’d like to see more courses where it is difficult to hit it as far and laying up is a legitimate strategy.

Yes, by all means give them an option to bomb it 330 but they should have to hit just an accurate a shot as someone hitting it 290. This brings far more guys into contention and makes for a more exciting event.

A lot of courses on the PGA tour, they have a business plan which involves getting their venue on the tour and then charging golfers $300 a game and no doubt a few grand onto their membership fees.

Doing that and then having the pros struggling to make pars is not necessarily going to help with that business plan. But someone making 35 birdies over 72 holes might be a bit more appealing.

I can see the logic here but like Tennis if you get two serve and volley players it just gets boring.

The pros overpower courses and TV editors only show the leaders so most of the real shotmaking goes missing in the coverage.

 

[Homer]

Here's the original post from MM, I've bolded the particularly relevant bit;

"But is that not one of the great myths of modern golf, certainly as far as the very top players are concerned.

No matter what is stamped on the sole of their clubs neither you nor I could purchase the same."

Why are Rory, Tiger, Retief or similar banned as examples when that was exactly the type of player mentioned? MM didn't mention tour choppers as you disrespectfully refer to them, but you try to change his original point to start an argument. Sounds suspiciously like someone who recently left here...

The Tour Choppers, between the US and Europe, are the best 300 players in the world - does that not make them part of the very top players section?

 

[Grant85]

I can see the logic here but like Tennis if you get two serve and volley players it just gets boring.

The pros overpower courses and TV editors only show the leaders so most of the real shotmaking goes missing in the coverage.

It’s not the shot making that makes the coverage it is having close leaderboards.

In my view, you do that by having a course that is playable for multiple styles of player.

 

[Homer]

It’s not the shot making that makes the coverage it is having close leaderboards.

In my view, you do that by having a course that is playable for multiple styles of player.

Like Walton Heath showed this year.

 

[Grant85]

Like Walton Heath showed this year.

Yes, and Carnoustie. Most Open Championships in fact.

I think Paris National is a decent example of a modern course that I’d like to see Pros play, but not exactly mad keen to play it myself.

Yes, it is too penal with regards to having so many lakes in play and forced carries, but having a tight layout and thick rough really puts a premium on accuracy.

Yes, you can hit a driver and bomb it 330 but you better make sure you are in the fairway.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

The Tour Choppers, between the US and Europe, are the best 300 players in the world - does that not make them part of the very top players section?

No!

The equipment mfrs, want us to buy their clubs and have huge endorsement deals with the very top players.

Nobody is likely to be persuaded to buy a particular brand because the 250th player in the OWGR uses that brand.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

I would like to see it happen.

To me the modern pro game is as dull as dishwater to watch, driver wedge/short iron to ever increasingly long par 4's. Take the ball back, put a premium on hitting the fairway knowing you are hitting a very long iron in for the next shot.

Players need to be tested throuhout the bag not just driver, wedge and putter.

No real shotmaking artists in the game anymore, just gym rats overpowering the course.

The modern ball and equipment is great for amateurs who need all the help we can get but I think the ball in particular has let to this current state of power golf over shotmaking.

I'm sure some people get excited about watching 300 yard drives but I find it all one dimensional.

 

[jim8flog]

A low single figure handicap player is as far removed from the Tour players as a National League footballer is from a Premier League player.

I have played with both and it is not a view I would agree with. I have played with a few pros that have aspired to be on the main tour but it was fairly easy to see some that would not make it.

 

[jim8flog]

We already have a degree of bifurcation.

For example we can use range finders and GPS devices, these are not allowed on the Tours.

.

We only have these devices if the Local Rules allow it. Up until fairly recently one local union had a blanket ban on clubs in there region using them.

It will be interesting in 2019 to see if the pros are going to be allowed to use them as their use is now allowed under the rules.

The pros yardage charts are much more detailed than ours and often have yardages based upon DMD use in practice rounds. They also get a pin placement sheet for every round so they can be accurate to within a yard or two.

 

[jim8flog]

What is bifurcation ??? Never heard of it, but it sounds horribly American.

It is Latin in it's origin and has been in use probably before Europeans new of the existence of the Americas.

 

[jim8flog]

But is that not one of the great myths of modern golf, certainly as far as the very top players are concerned.

No matter what is stamped on the sole of their clubs neither you nor I could purchase the same.

That latter sentence surely is one of the great myths.

 

[Oddsocks]

Personally I feel it’s well overdue. With regards to the cut off, a simplified set of rules at club level with the official full rules kicking in at proAM, Junior pro and all other pro recognised comps

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I have played with both and it is not a view I would agree with. I have played with a few pros that have aspired to be on the main tour but it was fairly easy to see some that would not make it.

I specifically was not referring to "aspiring" pro's but those already established on the European or PGA Tours.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

That latter sentence surely is one of the great myths.

Again, it is not a myth in the case of the very top players.

 

[jim8flog]

One of the simple changes they could make is to limit the tour pros to 10 clubs