Bifurcation......do we or don't we?

[duncan mackie]

Reading Tom Coyne’s book, A Course Called Scotland, he documents many courses that are a Tom Morris layout but updated by James Braid at a later date and often someone else further down the line. Clearly they maybe didn’t quite have the same sentimentality to their course or realise the significance of an Old Tom course when they hired someone to make changes (albeit the changes may often have been extending a 9 or 12 holes to 18)

I think courses shouldn’t be afraid to tweak certain holes or redesign certain sections if it has proper architectural merit. Ideally done with an architect who will put his name on it. Clearly when most U.K. courses were laid out, there wasn’t much in the way of earth moving equipment and most courses will have blind holes and / or weaker holes that are simply a way of getting from that area of the property to another.

However biggest issue with this is resource and there simply isn’t a business case in most respects, even if it would radically improve a course.

Both the Old Course and Augusta have changes made over the years, but these certainly aren’t widely publicised. Why is it so acceptable to move a tee 25 yards back but absolute sacrilege to move or reshape a green or add / remove bunkers?

We seem to agree, and your penultimate paragraph is the answer to your last. The costs involved rarely have the business case. Tandridge did a lot a few years ago at huge cost, and Nairn is currently doing some, but both are member clubs who worked long and hard to make the case and raise the funds.

 

[Grant85]

We seem to agree, and your penultimate paragraph is the answer to your last. The costs involved rarely have the business case. Tandridge did a lot a few years ago at huge cost, and Nairn is currently doing some, but both are member clubs who worked long and hard to make the case and raise the funds.

Quite, but it was more in response to the general point about people not wanting to change courses that have been in place for 100 years or so. In my view a barrier to progress.

Clearly there are venues that can afford to adapt and make changes - especially those hosting Professional events - and in my view if changes can be made that are improvements, then sentimentality should not be a barrier to this.

 

[Homer]

Again, it is not a myth in the case of the very top players.

Can you expand on this please, as would like to know/understand more.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Can you expand on this please, as would like to know/understand more.

Iron heads forged by outside forging houses, Tiger and Rory playing "prototype" irons are some recent examples.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

If the worlds best ever player (certainly in terms of majors) argues that the pro game needs a pro only ball then I suggest perhaps the golfing powers needs to take heed and listen to Nicklaus. Where is the creativity, shot shaping and short game finesse in the modern game?

 

[USER1999]

One of the simple changes they could make is to limit the tour pros to 10 clubs

I have thought this for a long time. The bigger the gapping, the more the player has to be creative.

I also think it would help to have a ball that spins more with a driver. The modern ball for pro's is just too straight.

There is no reason not to have a tournament ball. They do it in tennis, and the players adjust to it. It would work fine in golf.

 

[Sweep]

Having read many of the posts on this very interesting thread I think generally we have too much concern for the manufacturers. The game is what is important. The tail should not wag the dog.

 

[Papas1982]

For me it should stay as is. Maybe they could trial a round where fans, stewards etc couldn’t find their ball. I reckon we could all drop a few shots if we knew we could go after every tee shot knowing we wouldn’t lose a ball.

I wouldn’t limit the ball though as I can only imagine it would be a percentage decrease and that punishes the long hitters further. Hitting it far is a skill, just as putting well, or good wedge play. DJ didn’t get to the top of the world and dominate for 18 months due to his length, he did so as he worked damn hard on his wedge play.

 

[robinthehood]

Iron heads forged by outside forging houses, Tiger and Rory playing "prototype" irons are some recent examples.

Are you suggesting the golfers are playing other clubs but stamped with taylormade or other maker? Sounds like nonsense to me

 

[User2021]

Are you suggesting the golfers are playing other clubs but stamped with taylormade or other maker? Sounds like nonsense to me

That isn't what MM is saying.

Plenty of forging for the top pros is done by smaller workshops outside of the big OEM's.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

If clubheads for a top player are forged in an independent forging house but that forging is commissioned by, say, TaylorMade then you could legitimately claim those clubs are TaylorMade.

What you couldn't claim is that those clubs are the same as you or I could buy.

 

[robinthehood]

That isn't what MM is saying.

Plenty of forging for the top pros is done by smaller workshops outside of the big OEM's.

If clubheads for a top player are forged in an independent forging house but that forging is commissioned by, say, TaylorMade then you could legitimately claim those clubs are TaylorMade.

What you couldn't claim is that those clubs are the same as you or I could buy.

Fair enough, but i'd be surprised if TM etc would allow a contracted player to play clubs that weren't made by them in their own forges. Seems even more unlikely they would even consider outsourcing the work, it would be far to damaging to the brand.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Fair enough, but i'd be surprised if TM etc would allow a contracted player to play clubs that weren't made by them in their own forges. Seems even more unlikely they would even consider outsourcing the work, it would be far to damaging to the brand.

Has happened for years and still does.

Quality control at the OEM's production facilities may be the issue but also the discerning requirements of the top players.

In any event those production facilities are often not owned by the OEM's.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Don't really think course setup alone is the solution, as weather can mean it can not be done as the organisers would hope and would mean courses would be being setup like it for months before when some of these courses are members courses. Also don't like the thought of drivers being taking out of longer hitters hands, as it is part of the skill of golf.

So personally think time for a slight split and for tournaments, different golf balls would be the easiest to implement(whether that is spin, weight or size, whatever makes it the most interesting).

 

[duncan mackie]

Don't really think course setup alone is the solution, as weather can mean it can not be done as the organisers would hope and would mean courses would be being setup like it for months before when some of these courses are members courses. Also don't like the thought of drivers being taking out of longer hitters hands, as it is part of the skill of golf.

So personally think time for a slight split and for tournaments, different golf balls would be the easiest to implement(whether that is spin, weight or size, whatever makes it the most interesting).

Don't need a split. Can deal with distances through a simple, easy to implement rule change to the ball that would have a % impact on distances across the board (basically reduce the maximum weight of the ball and leave the size the same).

But, and it's a huge but, all those millions of players who will have to move clubs, and or tees, to continue to enjoy the game they have become used to playing won't appreciate it....and all those tour pros who are already at a disadvantage on some par 5s will be at an even bigger one on more holes every round.

The only people who will appreciate the change are the super fit athletes who have managed to develop their physical prowess and ball striking capabilities to the extent that they have a huge edge over their fellow competitors!

There really isn't the massive issue that people keep banging on about - and for those who are new to the game, and viewing attributes, the tours did play with much tighter set ups for a few seasons and the US viewing figures suffered badly. Courses have been increasingly set up to favour aggressive, power, players for a reason - and players have developed their games in response.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Don't really think course setup alone is the solution, as weather can mean it can not be done as the organisers would hope and would mean courses would be being setup like it for months before when some of these courses are members courses. Also don't like the thought of drivers being taking out of longer hitters hands, as it is part of the skill of golf.

So personally think time for a slight split and for tournaments, different golf balls would be the easiest to implement(whether that is spin, weight or size, whatever makes it the most interesting).

I think the ball is the simplest change to implement although who gets the deal would be a huge stumbling block. It would take you the need to keep stretching courses longer and longer

 

[Nickrat]

The statistics are based on the PGA Tour's Shotlink system, which tracks each shot played on the tour. The average shot hit with a driver carried 260 yards and traveled a total of 287.3 yards, including the roll. An average 3-wood shot carried 238 yards and the average 5-wood carried 223 yards.

 

[clubchamp98]

The statistics are based on the PGA Tour's Shotlink system, which tracks each shot played on the tour. The average shot hit with a driver carried 260 yards and traveled a total of 287.3 yards, including the roll. An average 3-wood shot carried 238 yards and the average 5-wood carried 223 yards.

There averages though so there are some shorter hitters who would be more disadvantaged than long hitters if the ball is modified.
I think it would affect shorter guys than longer ones.

 

[Wolf]

There averages though so there are some shorter hitters who would be more disadvantaged than long hitters if the ball is modified.
I think it would affect shorter guys than longer ones.

Agree totally, limiting the ball may stop the bombers from bombing but will still leave them around 40 yards ahead of some shorter hitters,. So perhaps bomb and wedge for likes of DJ & Champ goes down to drive and 7iron, for someone like Molinari average length that becomes driver and a hybrid at best. Still leaves a significant amount of the field struggling more and would be detrimental to enjoying the pro game for many pros.

I still believe course set up is key, just look at US Opens, The Open, Le Golf National etc where course management and accuracy are more important but many disagree stating its technology's faukt.. so another issue that won't be solved.

 

[Papas1982]

There averages though so there are some shorter hitters who would be more disadvantaged than long hitters if the ball is modified.
I think it would affect shorter guys than longer ones.

If the ball simply took a percentage off then it would actually be the longer hitters that lost out more. Say its 15%. A 300ya drive becomes 255. A 250 drive becomes 212.50. So big hitter loses 45 yards. Shorter one only 37.50. Big hitter potentially loses club extra.