Bifurcation......do we or don't we?

[mhwgc]

Slightly off tack , but I think it relevant in that we are talking about the differences between the pro game and us amateurs game.
I have often thought but not seen any comment on golf tv ,or elsewhere , on just what score the pros would make if they played the game as we do!
Meaning - No ball spotters on the strategic points on the course: no tv cameras to assist where the ball went:no spectators to do the same ball spotting ,and finding ,and stopping the ball from finding unplayable positions etc.
I reckon that pros hitting 300 yd drives "off piste " would be hard put to find their ball alone, so easily, and 3 off the tee would be a lot more common.
So, maybe 3 or 4 more shots per round?
What do you think?😀

I think you'd find that they'd shoot the same sort of scores. They wouldn't risk hitting a driver on some holes in case they lost it but as they can carry a 3 wood 270 + it wouldn't hold them back.

Although they they hit the ball a long way off the tee, it's the accuracy with their iron shots and an amazing short game and putting that really stands out. I was fortunate to play with a 'good' tour pro a few years ago and he carried his own bag, raked the one bunker he went in and was great fun to play with. He hit every fairway, was very relaxed and shot 7 under. They're just in a different league than the rest of us.

 

[mhwgc]

But is that not one of the great myths of modern golf, certainly as far as the very top players are concerned.

No matter what is stamped on the sole of their clubs neither you nor I could purchase the same.

Whereas this is true in some cases with some of the manufacturers, if you're a Mizuno fan you'll be pleased to know that you using the same equipment as the Tour Pro's. Sure the range of shafts available for the woods are infinite and they don't pay for them but you can do. Go and book yourself on a Mizuno fitting day at Bearwood Lakes and you'll get the same service and products that they do.

Clearly you'll need to spend endless hours in the gym and have the same amount of talent as they do but it is the same.

 

[SteveJay]

Why do this for golf......the same argument could be held for a lot of sports, where the elite game is is different to that played by amateurs?

I used to play a bit of squash and if you watch the top players on TV it is like they are playing a totally different game with a bouncy ball, such is their speed and talent. That is the biggest difference between elite and amateur sport I have witnessed.

Almost all other sports have the same rules throughout, but there are similar differences in the performance of amateurs vs pros. Golf is lucky and unusual in that it allows us mortals to play on the same course used for pro competitions at times, and even play competitively against very good players due to handicapping. We accept the gulf between us and professionals but having the same rules means we can really appreciate how good they actually are.

 

[clubchamp98]

Why do this for golf......the same argument could be held for a lot of sports, where the elite game is is different to that played by amateurs?

I used to play a bit of squash and if you watch the top players on TV it is like they are playing a totally different game with a bouncy ball, such is their speed and talent. That is the biggest difference between elite and amateur sport I have witnessed.

Almost all other sports have the same rules throughout, but there are similar differences in the performance of amateurs vs pros. Golf is lucky and unusual in that it allows us mortals to play on the same course used for pro competitions at times, and even play competitively against very good players due to handicapping. We accept the gulf between us and professionals but having the same rules means we can really appreciate how good they actually are.

On holiday once guy shouts over anyone play tennis.?
His partner hadn’t turned up.
I was quite decent at the time.
His first serve never even registered on my radar and hit the netting behind me before I even heard it.
He just laughed and said “I’ll tone it down a bit.”
But I learned a lot in that game, his control of the ball was awesome.
He qualified for Wimbledon that year.

I have played golf with tour pros and very good ams and there is a massive gulf imo.
The ams can get that good but it takes time and effort.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Whereas this is true in some cases with some of the manufacturers, if you're a Mizuno fan you'll be pleased to know that you using the same equipment as the Tour Pro's. Sure the range of shafts available for the woods are infinite and they don't pay for them but you can do. Go and book yourself on a Mizuno fitting day at Bearwood Lakes and you'll get the same service and products that they do.

Clearly you'll need to spend endless hours in the gym and have the same amount of talent as they do but it is the same.

Wasn't true for Faldo.

OK his irons were produced by a Mizuno employee but that same guy wasn't also knocking out clubs for the likes of you.

 

[mhwgc]

Wasn't true for Faldo.

OK his irons were produced by a Mizuno employee but that same guy wasn't also knocking out clubs for the likes of you.

True but to be fair, that was a while ago!

 

[Deleted member 18588]

True but to be fair, that was a while ago!

Do you think Koepka's irons came off the production line?

Personally I very much doubt it.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Do you think Koepka's irons came off the production line?

Personally I very much doubt it.

They did - according to him they did , he picked up a set from his mate in a golf shop who was a pro in the US to try and test them and ended up buying them and sticking with them .

He uses the same JPX irons that are on sale

Spieth uses the same Titleist we can all get and I suspect there are many more pros using irons that can be purchased by us mere mortals

 

[mhwgc]

Do you think Koepka's irons came off the production line?

Personally I very much doubt it.

The heads come from exactly the same factory as everyone else's, everything is exactly the same! Although they can also get the Yoro stuff but so can we although we pay for it!
Only difference is when a new model comes out then the tour players get there's first, but still the same forgings!

 

[IanM]

In essence I have no issues with some differences between the Tour and the Amateur games.... if the Tour adopt a "uniform" ball to stop the impending need for a 9000 yard course, so be it... we could still play using one "just to see what it was like!" I suspect we'd hand it back swifty!

Or, may be part of the spectacle is watching DJ send it into orbit?

 

[clubchamp98]

So how come you see all the “ tour issue “ clubs on eBay for silly sums.?
Is there a difference.?

 

[clubchamp98]

In essence I have no issues with some differences between the Tour and the Amateur games.... if the Tour adopt a "uniform" ball to stop the impending need for a 9000 yard course, so be it... we could still play using one "just to see what it was like!" I suspect we'd hand it back swifty!

Or, may be part of the spectacle is watching DJ send it into orbit?

Isn’t that like making Usain Bolt run in his wellies.
I know he’s retired now!

He is the best and it’s up to everyone else to catch him.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

The heads come from exactly the same factory as everyone else's, everything is exactly the same! Although they can also get the Yoro stuff but so can we although we pay for it!
Only difference is when a new model comes out then the tour players get there's first, but still the same forgings!

Sorry but I am afraid that I remain sceptical.

In any event this has all become a distraction from the original question on bifurcation.

Your earlier post was very pertinent. Having also played with a couple of them I can only concur that they play a form of golf far removed from the low handicappers and that has more to do with the amount of time spent training and practising than any influence from their clubs.

They are quite capable of adjusting their play to suit course conditions and long hitters would still have an advantage.

However, the introduction of a "Tour ball" could help to ensure that many of the longer established courses used for pro's events can remain relevant.

Not all of such courses have the land available for further lengthening.

 

[mhwgc]

Sorry but I am afraid that I remain sceptical.

In any event this has all become a distraction from the original question on bifurcation.

Your earlier post was very pertinent. Having also played with a couple of them I can only concur that they play a form of golf far removed from the low handicappers and that has more to do with the amount of time spent training and practising than any influence from their clubs.

They are quite capable of adjusting their play to suit course conditions and long hitters would still have an advantage.

However, the introduction of a "Tour ball" could help to ensure that many of the longer established courses used for pro's events can remain relevant.

Not all of such courses have the land available for further lengthening.

OK fair enough.

I think one factor that is being overlooked is how physically strong and fit the top tour players are these days.
If the ball get's changed I'm sure they'll soon work out a way to 'muscle' it round!

 

[mhwgc]

So how come you see all the “ tour issue “ clubs on eBay for silly sums.?
Is there a difference.?

Only from some of the manufacturers.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

OK fair enough.

I think one factor that is being overlooked is how physically strong and fit the top tour players are these days.
If the ball get's changed I'm sure they'll soon work out a way to 'muscle' it round!

True, after all the strongest and fittest have worked to be just that and it is reasonable that they should have an advantage.

However, control of the ball by the authorities should mean at least being able to delay the need for 8000+ yard courses that would be irrelevant to club golfers.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I think you'd find that they'd shoot the same sort of scores. They wouldn't risk hitting a driver on some holes in case they lost it but as they can carry a 3 wood 270 + it wouldn't hold them back.

Although they they hit the ball a long way off the tee, it's the accuracy with their iron shots and an amazing short game and putting that really stands out. I was fortunate to play with a 'good' tour pro a few years ago and he carried his own bag, raked the one bunker he went in and was great fun to play with. He hit every fairway, was very relaxed and shot 7 under. They're just in a different league than the rest of us.

Essentially I agree with what you say. Of course they would adapt to the course and the conditions ( i.e. No one to find their ball but them ). But if they played carefully on Carnoustie, say, set up as for a Major, then their scores would be bigger. Fact.
But I wouldn't want it different to how it is now.It would be ludicrous to have a Major or other Pro tour comp.without tv, or crowds or even spotters.
I was just making the observation that those things , tv , crowds , spotters do enhance their scores. 😀

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Essentially I agree with what you say. Of course they would adapt to the course and the conditions ( i.e. No one to find their ball but them ). But if they played carefully on Carnoustie, say, set up as for a Major, then their scores would be bigger. Fact.
But I wouldn't want it different to how it is now.It would be ludicrous to have a Major or other Pro tour comp.without tv, or crowds or even spotters.
I was just making the observation that those things , tv , crowds , spotters do enhance their scores. 😀

I don't think that you can claim as a FACT that the pros' scores would be higher if they played carefully .

It is your opinion and a valid one but we don't know if it is true.

After all how many risks did Molinari take and how many shots would he have played differently?

We don't know.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I don't think that you can claim as a FACT that the pros' scores would be higher if they played carefully .

It is your opinion and a valid one but we don't know if it is true.

After all how many risks did Molinari take and how many shots would he have played differently?

We don't know.

Well yes, you are right in a literal sense, I just let the use of the vernacular get the better of me 😀 Not the best way to conduct a discussion.
However, it has been inferred that their scores would be worse. I think. Imagine if the pros in the Open at Carnoustie 2018 had all used 3 woods off every long hole tee, and driven distances of around 270-
Then their completion of those long holes would have been less in "Greens in Regulation", and thus higher scores, than if they had used their Drivers.
Which is why they used their drivers! Safe in the knowledge that they wouldn't
lose any of their errant drive balls.
Remember, a lost ball is two extra shots, minimum.
As for Molinari, a worthy winner, I don't know how many risks he took.(Obviously less than the US big hitters) but I'd wager he still took some.


Edit. I have changed the post. Sorry, MM, I attributed to you a comment made by another.