At what point can you get cut

[Deleted member 16999]

When the variable standard scratch system came in (from memory) all clubs were told to stop automatically declaring competitions as non qualifiers.

From the current manual
It is against the spirit and intent of the system to adjust the terms and conditions of a competition deliberately, so that it is rendered non-qualifying on a technicality.



Non Qualifying Competition

A Non Qualifying Competition is a competition when the requirements of a Qualifying Competition are not satisfied.

In exceptional circumstances only, or with the authority of the Union, the committee in charge of a competition may declare it a Non Qualifying Competition before play commences and must so advise competitors before they commence play.

e.g

• intentionally moving one or more tees forward when a Measured Course is available and in a suitable condition for play;

RE last bit if you always have winter tees in the same place you can have a measured course certificate for the winter tees, it is what we have.

We tee up on the fairway, County weren’t interested, it’s not just the shortening of the course.

Choice would be, get course measured from Winter tees, no problem.

Stop teeing up and move to preferred lies only, (not sure if playing off mats or moving to 1st cut is allowed to be used for qualifying).

If we then went to preffered lies, course would suffer all for the sake of holding qualifiers in the winter, last year we lost over 40 days to weather, 16 of them days were weekends, ie 8 weeks, really don’t think us playing comps nov-march as non-qualifiers is done to “fiddle or punish” anyone and I’m not aware of any member complaining.

 

[garyinderry]

For those that play Q comps all year, do you find it any easier to score in summer or winter? in winter, even with a long course with less run, greens tend to be really soft and hold approach shots with any club. Does this lead to low scores?


In the north of Ireland, its cold, wet and not conducive to playing qualifying comps. The grass barely grows and balls plug all over the shop.

I am actually glad we don't play Q comps all year round. I look forward to the season although I think it does end a bit too early as the course is usually still in great condition.

 

[duncan mackie]

We tee up on the fairway, County weren’t interested, it’s not just the shortening of the course.

Choice would be, get course measured from Winter tees, no problem.

Stop teeing up and move to preferred lies only, (not sure if playing off mats or moving to 1st cut is allowed to be used for qualifying).

If we then went to preffered lies, course would suffer all for the sake of holding qualifiers in the winter, last year we lost over 40 days to weather, 16 of them days were weekends, ie 8 weeks, really don’t think us playing comps nov-march as non-qualifiers is done to “fiddle or punish” anyone and I’m not aware of any member complaining.

Preferred Lies are fine, mats are fine - both within the local authority authorised periods or with specific authorisation outside those.
Moving it is a no-no.
From everything you have said mats is a better solution all round - teeing it up offers no guarantee of protection, and preferred lies delivers the same protection principle (and little in practice).

 

[duncan mackie]

For those that play Q comps all year, do you find it any easier to score in summer or winter? in winter, even with a long course with less run, greens tend to be really soft and hold approach shots with any club. Does this lead to low scores?


In the north of Ireland, its cold, wet and not conducive to playing qualifying comps. The grass barely grows and balls plug all over the shop.

I am actually glad we don't play Q comps all year round. I look forward to the season although I think it does end a bit too early as the course is usually still in great condition.

It varies enormasly Gary.

The extremes of conditions for a parkland course at this time of year are massive - in the summer you simply get the odd windy, colder day, maybe rain etc
Exactly what impact will depend on both the underlying conditions (this last week has been beautiful, we have gone from winter wheels to permitting buggies in 10 days) and the nature of the courses difficulty. If fast hard greens, extensive green side protection and sloping banks into water all over the place are your course you will find many winter conditions a doodle- especially if distances are balanced with favourable tee positions.
Wide open fairways, short rough, no front of green protection and slow'ish summer greens and winter may be a killer to many from the same tees.

 

[rosecott]

Well.....

I hope we can agree that if the handicap committee has evidence that a player's handicap doesn't reflect their capability they should adjust the handicap appropriately?

After which it becomes a question of what constitutes such evidence etc etc etc

As for the concept of 'winter' handicaps....ee have done that to death recently.
Personally I have some sympathy with Homer in that we run Q comps all year and use forward (rated) tees to bring an ele,ent of balance back to those who would flounder without any roll, poor lies off the fringes and less than true greens etc. Played a match agaisnt Crowborough on Monday and they have neither winter tees (a couple of mats inset on forward tees were in evidence - very sensible) nor winter greens either - certainly in one of the top 100 lists I've seen recently.
Courses should do what they think is right - but there seem to be more that could easily run Q comps for a longer season if they chose to!

I agree that the Handicap Committee has a responsibility to adjust if they have evidence. In the case quoted, however, a formula has been laid down to make a downward adjustment from one result for one player, that is surely a no-no.

Q. The Handicap Committee in our club has taken the decision to make competitions Non Qualifying for the duration of the preferred lie period. Resulting from this decision a number of competitors who played below the course SSS in such competitions are seeking a reduction in their Exact Handicap. Is this permitted?
A. It is a fundamental tenet of the UHS that handicap adjustments can only be applied in Qualifying Competitions when handicaps are adjusted, upwards and downwards as appropriate, in relation to the CSS. To create a situation where handicaps can only be reduced, would distort the balance on which the system is based. To reduce the handicaps of those players scoring below the SSS in Non-Qualifying Competitions is considered to be an unacceptable abuse of the system. To permit the UHS to operate as intended, all competitions should be run, whenever possible, as Qualifying Competitions. A number of dispensations for winter play have been granted by CONGU® to encourage this, including preferred lies and use of artificial mats.

 

[duncan mackie]

I agree that the Handicap Committee has a responsibility to adjust if they have evidence. In the case quoted, however, a formula has been laid down to make a downward adjustment from one result for one player, that is surely a no-no.

I agree - but, without wishing to state the obvious, it's never just the one result as there will always be a reference history 🤔

Use of any formulae, other than the CONGU approved ones, is definitely a big no no as you evidence. 👍

 

[Tashyboy]

Right, I saw the main man today at our place and asked him re the guy getting 48 points and being cut. He said that for quite a few years the committee at Norwood has said that during NQ season. If any player shoots over 45 points they will Be cut due to exceptional scoring. It has happened a few times over the years and no one has ever had a problem with it. I asked him about the guy who had 44 points and two blobs in the same comp and he said he didn't get 45 so he was not looked at. He did say that if he had called in and asked to have his hcap looked at the committee would of done as they have done with others over the winter.
He did go on and mention that because of pick and place there will be some good scores over the winter but 45 is the exceptional scoring number.

 

[duncan mackie]

Right, I saw the main man today at our place and asked him re the guy getting 48 points and being cut. He said that for quite a few years the committee at Norwood has said that during NQ season. If any player shoots over 45 points they will Be cut due to exceptional scoring. It has happened a few times over the years and no one has ever had a problem with it. I asked him about the guy who had 44 points and two blobs in the same comp and he said he didn't get 45 so he was not looked at. He did say that if he had called in and asked to have his hcap looked at the committee would of done as they have done with others over the winter.
He did go on and mention that because of pick and place there will be some good scores over the winter but 45 is the exceptional scoring number.

So did you hightlight that CONGU have been clear that committees are not permitted to adjust handicaps on the basis of a single NQ score....

 

[moogie]

So did you hightlight that CONGU have been clear that committees are not permitted to adjust handicaps on the basis of a single NQ score....

It beggars belief how many clubs up and down the country must be run like this?
Just doing as they please.....
Believing they can too

 

[Homer]

Don’t tell them that they don’t want to hear it!!

 

[patricks148]

For those that play Q comps all year, do you find it any easier to score in summer or winter? in winter, even with a long course with less run, greens tend to be really soft and hold approach shots with any club. Does this lead to low scores?


In the north of Ireland, its cold, wet and not conducive to playing qualifying comps. The grass barely grows and balls plug all over the shop.

I am actually glad we don't play Q comps all year round. I look forward to the season although I think it does end a bit too early as the course is usually still in great condition.

Glad we don't, though the winter course is much easier, but SSS is 4 lower than usual. No rough and short holes are all well and good but its the north of Scotland so can and is cold and very windy most of the time. Though saying that Nairn Dunbars medal (NQ) on Sat was off as far back as you can go on all the tee's playing 6800, with no run at all as it had rained heavily all night and it gets very wet on some holes... didn't stop someone shooting 66 gross though

 

[duncan mackie]

We play Q comps all year round at Knole Park, only difference is in winter all comps are Stableford, medals return first week of April.
We don't have any temp greens, nor do we play off any forward tees etc, so the course isn't shortened.

Is it easier to score in the summer or winter?
For me, certainly the summer. Ball rolls further, its warmer. The disadvantage of the summer is we have a lot of bracken that grows very high in the summer months, so winter if you are a little erratic you have more chance of finding a ball not on the fairway.

For me Knole has always played easier when the ground is a little softer, and obviously the bracken can be a factor!
Approach shots are massively more predictable, and areas of some green are only accessible to mere mortals in those conditions.
Whilst it's great to be able to benefit from good roll, it's only really that constructive on a few holes - 15 being the biggest - although if there's any prevailing wind it will make a difference on 4, 6 & 8 as well. The corollary is that front pin 7 and anything other than back right on 12 become 'challenging'

 

[garyinderry]

Why would anyone not be in favour of a player being cut for scoring well even if the comp is non qualifying?


Wouldn't bother me in the slightest.