Aimpoint

[Khamelion]

I think for some of us it's purely because it's 'sold' as a scientific method. Then we question the science as the finger pointing method/straddling etc isn't scientific per se.

Thread has helped me learn more about it anyway 👍

The thread got kind of confused, by referring to Aimpoint and Aimpoint Express as the same thing, they are not. Aimpoint is the scientific calculus, algorithm, algebra computational side that got used on TV, Aimpoint Express is the simplified, fingers up, arm bent method.

 

[Jamesbrown]

Gravity, reading a slope by your eyes does the same thing. What do you think processes the slope, it's not your feet its your brain which is fed by the information it receives from the eyes. The brain is the processing centre, just like it is for your eyes. For your information I do have the knowledge, although if you had read the thread in full you would have known that, therefore I can refute it if I so desire. Therefore your rant is "bullpoo" just like your rant that all higher handicap golfer can't chip, they just want to rely on equipment and Pro V's.

You've not added anything to the debate.

No, YOU haven’t added anything...

If you had read the previous post. Feeling with your feet is more sensitive than your eyes.... that is a fact.

If you had also read the post, you would read that I didn’t say higher handicappers can’t chip.

It’s a proven technique of reading greens, there is no dispute, there is no debate.. it’s just believers, non believers and spunk bubbles like you!

player feels slope with feet, recognises left to right break. Player putts ball an aim point. Ball either goes in hole or doesn’t. That’s it....

Why you need to argue about it is beyond me... bring back delc.

 

[Jacko_G]

No, YOU haven’t added anything...

If you had read the previous post. Feeling with your feet is more sensitive than your eyes.... that is a fact.

If you had also read the post, you would read that I didn’t say higher handicappers can’t chip.

It’s a proven technique of reading greens, there is no dispute, there is no debate.. it’s just believers, non believers and spunk bubbles like you!

player feels slope with feet, recognises left to right break. Player putts ball an aim point. Ball either goes in hole or doesn’t. That’s it....

Why you need to argue about it is beyond me... bring back delc.

Nope, your brain tells your feet what the slope is, you see the slope through your eyes and the brain calculates it.

Your feet don't know you are on a slope till your brain processes that. You continue with your abuse though, water off a ducks back.

So in reality your brain is calculating the aimpoint slope not the feet but I'll not split hairs.

 

[Foxholer]

The thread got kind of confused, by referring to Aimpoint and Aimpoint Express as the same thing, they are not. Aimpoint is the scientific calculus, algorithm, algebra computational side that got used on TV, Aimpoint Express is the simplified, fingers up, arm bent method.

Er....Not quite! Before Aimpoint Express, there were 2 other 'versions' of the personal green reading, one with a load of charts with numbers dependent on the Stimp value of Greens and another that was a simplified version of that. Both were deemed 'Aimpoint'! Aimpoint Express simply comes up with quick and easy method to determine how far outside a hole to aim, rather than shuffling between a rather confusing set of cards!

 

[Foxholer]

For heavens sake JG and JB, give it a rest - you've been saying the same thing over and over! And it's tiresome!

Sure it's the Brain that does the 'calculation' of slope, whether input is from eyes or feet! But eyes/feet are the receptors that provide the 'data'!

Can't think of a great equivalent, but perhaps speed detectors, whether old-style pressure ones laid a specific distance apart or Gatso ones. The receptors don't do the calculation (in Gatso's case, whether to to take a pic or not) but merely provide the 'data' from which a calculation (and in Gatso's case a decision) is made by the 'brain' of the unit!

 

[Bunkermagnet]

As I said a while back, if something works for someone who is anyone else to decry it.
As long as YOU are happy with what YOU do, it works for YOU and YOU are comfortable with it , thats all that matters.
All that matters is the number we put on the score card.

 

[6535]

Aimpoint is a waste of time and money....................................if you can't putt.
You might be brilliant at reading greens but a rubbish putter.

Learn how to putt first and you might find you don't need Aimpoint.

Yeah great idea, use your 2 roddy thing to get the perfect stroke to send the ball to the hole.

You forget that greens have slopes, no point having a great stroke if you can’t read a green with or without Aimpoint.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Decided the simplest answer is to take my chart out in the club match tomorrow and see how the proven scientific version stands up to my personally calibrated Aimpoint Express. Might do front nine with the chart and back nine with express read.

 

[bobmac]

Yeah great idea, use your 2 roddy thing to get the perfect stroke to send the ball to the hole.

You forget that greens have slopes, no point having a great stroke if you can’t read a green with or without Aimpoint.

Aimpoint is a waste of time and money....................................if you can't putt.
You might be brilliant at reading greens but a rubbish putter.

Learn how to putt first and you might find you don't need Aimpoint.

 

[Jacko_G]

Wasting your time Bob.

That lad is deluded all because he plays off low single figures. That makes all the difference in his head.

Like you I agree it's down to the Muppet holding the putter, if you have poor mechanics you are going to struggle to hole putts regardless of what method you use on the greens.

Also the brain processes the same information that your eyes see and your feet "feel" but apparently your feet are better.

Personally I'll stick to my method and a wee half hour every now and then with those two wee Roddy things!

 

[Foxholer]

Decided the simplest answer is to take my chart out in the club match tomorrow and see how the proven scientific version stands up to my personally calibrated Aimpoint Express. Might do front nine with the chart and back nine with express read.

Not a bad idea, Though a better one (the 'scientific' method) would be to use both on the same hole - and putt. The result should be the same.

But I would suggest a Club match is not the time to do it!

In fact, you don't even need to be playing to confirm (or refute) the method this way - just chuck a ball down on any green and do the reads. You don't even need to actually putt either, as the purpose is to confirm that 'Charted' Aimpoint and Express Aimpoint come up with the same reult!

 

[6535]

I apologise Bob, I mis read your post and I couldn’t remember the name of your invention, hence the 2 roddy comment. I meant no offence with that.

Unlike Jocko G who have mis read or INTERPRETED in what I’ve said wrongly and drawn up a pathetic conclusion that I’m superior and I’m far from deluded. But King amongst men doesn’t think his statement isn’t superior. Hypocrisy beyond belief.

 

[Hobbit]

€50 for the Aimpoint Express at Valle Del Este on the 22nd Sept. Tempted but I'm already there playing with guests.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Not a bad idea, Though a better one (the 'scientific' method) would be to use both on the same hole - and putt. The result should be the same.

But I would suggest a Club match is not the time to do it!

In fact, you don't even need to be playing to confirm (or refute) the method this way - just chuck a ball down on any green and do the reads. You don't even need to actually putt either, as the purpose is to confirm that 'Charted' Aimpoint and Express Aimpoint come up with the same reult!

Decided against the chart in the match. The greens were lightening quick as they had been ironed and cut ahead of the Jamega pro-am today and so were running close to 11 on the stimp according to our head greenkeeper. Had to really adjust my Express read and bend the arm far more than I'm use to. We have the Jamega event tomorrow and Tuesday so going to try and get out and maybe play two or three holes and do as you say and make an Aimpoint read and putt and then a chart read and repeat, and then reverse the process on the next hole so I am not learning anything about the putts from the first attempt and just see what works best

 

[Foxholer]

Decided against the chart in the match. The greens were lightening quick as they had been ironed and cut ahead of the Jamega pro-am today and so were running close to 11 on the stimp according to our head greenkeeper. Had to really adjust my Express read and bend the arm far more than I'm use to. We have the Jamega event tomorrow and Tuesday so going to try and get out and maybe play two or three holes and do as you say and make an Aimpoint read and putt and then a chart read and repeat, and then reverse the process on the next hole so I am not learning anything about the putts from the first attempt and just see what works best

Er...You missed my point! Though, re-reading my post, I can see how you might have misinterpreted the words 'and putt'. Probably should have stated 'and the same putt'!

The approach I suggested doesn't actually require you to putt! In fact, it's probably better that you don't!

Merely confirming that the Chart based 'read' and the Express one suggest the same line, or not, should 'prove' whether the Express read is accurate - as the Chart based one is derived from the irrefutable science/calculation of 'Measured' Aimpoint!

If it does, then it's simply a case of how accurate the feel of the slope through the feet is, as to whether the subsequent choice of 'degree of slope' or 'number of fingers' works - but if they give the same Aim Point, then case proven!

 

[Backsticks]

If it does, then it's simply a case of how accurate the feel of the slope through the feet is, as to whether the subsequent choice of 'degree of slope' or 'number of fingers' works - but if they give the same Aim Point, then case proven!

Thats a lot of 'ifs' though.

In this whole discussion, I dont think anyone is really yestioning a fully computerised physical/geometrical calculation of the good line from a fully slope mapped green.

Its in the through-the-feet, and fingers business that it starts to look ropey. Or at best, be open to question.

Some of the key points are however quite easily tested using scientific (in the real sense) methods.

The key ones for me being (leaving pace judgement and putting stroke repeatability out of it for the sake of argument) :
- the need for a single slope value selection. Slope can vary according to where along the path of the putt it is measured. Sure, some will be very consistent. But are one, or even two or three measurements sufficient to be usefully accurate.
- can people judge, or be taught to judge, slope, using their feet, and is it any more accurate, or even as accurate, as by sight. Very easily checked beyond any doubt using blind tests and some statistics.
- is there any correlation between slope and finger thickness. This should be easily calculated at a desk by a mathematician skilled in geometry
- is a scale of 1-6 sufficient to provide accurate line resolution. Over some or all lengths. Again, some good geometry would clear up this point definitively one way or the other.

A failing in any of them of course, and aimpoint express fails.

Does anyone know of any reliable analyses of these ? (and please dont quote the irrelevant equations cited earlier in the thread).

 

[chrisd]

Why don't you just do the course with Jamie Donaldson and ask him the questions cos frankly you're getting on my nerves with your need to find proof of the science - it works!

 

[Hobbit]

Why don't you just do the course with Jamie Donaldson and ask him the questions cos frankly you're getting on my nerves with your need to find proof of the science - it works!

It’s like gravity. I can’t see it, but I know the science. Even then it’s still Rolex...Aimpoint works, too many intelligent pros can’t be wrong

 

[Backsticks]

Why don't you just do the course with Jamie Donaldson and ask him the questions cos frankly you're getting on my nerves with your need to find proof of the science - it works!

If it stands up as science, then it should stand up on that alone.
And the claimant should back that up.
The above suggestion is what raises the scepticism - the old snake oil salesman's patter :
- absolutely it cures baldness, bad breath, lumbago, the common cold, arthritis, and, will make you attractive to the opposite sex!
- Proof ?
- why just give me your £99 and you can try it for yourself and you will see (or feel through your feet) !

 

[chrisd]

It’s like gravity. I can’t see it, but I know the science. Even then it’s still Rolex...Aimpoint works, too many intelligent pros can’t be wrong

The interesting thing Brian is that the course is put across really simply by Jamie Donaldson. There is little talk of science, he just demonstrated the ways to read various putts and gives ample time for everyone to try them