Acceptable pairs betterball scores

[D-S]

It's not unusual for people to ridicule things they don't understand or know much about.

The authorities get feedback from a variety of sources, including the countless WHS workshops that were held with club representatives, at which this was a persistent recurring topic.

Agreed, it has been generally really well received by most, if not all, handicap committees I deal with.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

It's not unusual for people to ridicule things they don't understand or know much about.

The authorities get feedback from a variety of sources, including the countless WHS workshops that were held with club representatives, at which this was a persistent recurring topic.

So when you say “significant” it’s not really that big then when it’s just workshops

Interesting that a couple of workshops that club representatives around here didn’t have any significant demands for 4BBb to go towards HC records automatically- if anything the opposite with very much a negative response to the ideas

 

[Bratty]

I'd heard it was that an awful lot if not all competitive golf in US clubs only play 4BBB, so something had to be done to include it for handicapping purposes.
That's why I refuse to play US folks for money on the golf course. No guarantee of their handicap being accurate!

 

[doublebogey7]

My best score of the season is from a 4BBB, I played well, I am quite happy to take a cut,

Today we had a mixed 4BBB, there were some very high scores 49 won, a couple of 46s, 45s, 44s it is only right the people get cut, here is a funny thing though, we had 43 points, I was on the card 10 times, so will get a score on my handicap however I was the anchor and was getting the steady 2 points, whereas when my partner was on the card it was mainly 3 points, so I will had a score on my record but it probably wont be one of my top 8, whereas if we applied the same formula to my partner her would have probably got a cut, but wont because he was only on 8 times.

So it is not perfect but at least it tries.

The score will inly go on your handicap if when adjusted it results in more than 36 pts. Meaning you would likely to have had to score more than 23 pts on the 10 holes.

 

[LincolnShep]

The score will inly go on your handicap if when adjusted it results in more than 36 pts. Meaning you would likely to have had to score more than 23 pts on the 10 holes.

Individually, we scored 37 and 38 when calculated using the method for betterball handicaps that Bratty posted earlier. It wasn't my individual score that prevented me from getting a cut; simply that my score was only better than my partner's on 8 of 18 holes.

 

[Springveldt]

Doesn’t seem great if the system doesn’t just allow you to put an X or 0 in

Making everyone putt out on all holes will just slow everyone up

Ready golf mantra - if you can’t score then pick up

Doesn't really add that much time but if we were losing position on the course I'd probably start picking up but it's never been an issue so far. A lot of the putts end up being in the 3 foot radius and we don't spend time reading them, just usually try and knock them in.

Can't you just skip to the holes you scored on? That's what we do when entering scores for a 4bbb. We don't have to enter 0 or played but did not score.

I'm sure the last time I put the scores in when I went to skip over a player it popped up the message box "played but did not score" or "didn't play the hole" so you had to select one. I think our next 4bbb comp will be invitation day at the end of August, I'll check again then.

 

[rulie]

I'd heard it was that an awful lot if not all competitive golf in US clubs only play 4BBB, so something had to be done to include it for handicapping purposes.
That's why I refuse to play US folks for money on the golf course. No guarantee of their handicap being accurate!

Not sure where you heard that? There aren't many 4BBB competitions in my region of NA. Maybe it's confusion with 4 ball better ball match play within the group? Scores made in that format are to be reported in NA.

 

[chellie]

Doesn't really add that much time but if we were losing position on the course I'd probably start picking up but it's never been an issue so far. A lot of the putts end up being in the 3 foot radius and we don't spend time reading them, just usually try and knock them in.


I'm sure the last time I put the scores in when I went to skip over a player it popped up the message box "played but did not score" or "didn't play the hole" so you had to select one. I think our next 4bbb comp will be invitation day at the end of August, I'll check again then.

Perhaps our system is set up differently? Player A in the team enters their scores on the holes they scored on and saves them then player B enters theirs.

 

[Swango1980]

It's not unusual for people to ridicule things they don't understand or know much about.

The authorities get feedback from a variety of sources, including the countless WHS workshops that were held with club representatives, at which this was a persistent recurring topic.

I wouldn't be surprised one bit if club golfers cried out for 4BBB scores to be included on players handicap records, but I'm not sure the methodology used by WHS is one that many of these people would have expected?

I said a long long time ago, you could have plenty of issues, with the current methodology, where 2 players could have great scores and one of them not be cut. You could have situations where one player bags many 3 and 4 pointers, but their score only count on 8 holes because a steadier player can put their score down for 10 holes. And for players that are just not very good, all their bad rounds are just ignored, which goes against the principle of handicapping if we simply look at singles play.

Another very popular format is teams of 4, 2 best scores count. I bet there will be people out there looking for a way to get those scores to count for handicap, given some of the accusations of cheating when Teams get over 90 points. If that happens, I dread to think the people at WHS will butcher the system to make that work.

 

[wjemather]

I wouldn't be surprised one bit if club golfers cried out for 4BBB scores to be included on players handicap records, but I'm not sure the methodology used by WHS is one that many of these people would have expected?

I said a long long time ago, you could have plenty of issues, with the current methodology, where 2 players could have great scores and one of them not be cut. You could have situations where one player bags many 3 and 4 pointers, but their score only count on 8 holes because a steadier player can put their score down for 10 holes. And for players that are just not very good, all their bad rounds are just ignored, which goes against the principle of handicapping if we simply look at singles play.

Another very popular format is teams of 4, 2 best scores count. I bet there will be people out there looking for a way to get those scores to count for handicap, given some of the accusations of cheating when Teams get over 90 points. If that happens, I dread to think the people at WHS will butcher the system to make that work.

Of course, we should be using Most Likely Score (MLS) to include as many scores as possible (including match play) - but there is close to zero appetite to try and adopt that in GB&I because (at least some of) the decision makers in GB&I don't understand or accept the methodology; educating and gaining acceptance from players would also be extremely difficult.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

“Most Likely Score” is nothing but guess work

If the authorities want to use team formats for HC then they ask all players to put all scores in and use each individual players score

But then you have the mix of team and single formats etc and collusion etc etc

Or the simple way - you don’t use team formats for HC because it’s far from simple

 

[Swango1980]

Of course, we should be using Most Likely Score (MLS) to include as many scores as possible (including match play) - but there is close to zero appetite to try and adopt that in GB&I because (at least some of) the decision makers in GB&I don't understand or accept the methodology; educating and gaining acceptance from players would also be extremely difficult.

I'd rather competitors are all simply just asked to submit each hole score. People will say that will slow play down. However, many players in groups do that now anyway, thus I never notice a difference in the pace of play between a typical fourball Saturday morning (where we are all submitting scores for handicap) and a Team of four Open. It isn't like all these opens are being played in sub 4 hours, whereas your fourball at the weekend (where we are all entering scores for handicap) are being played.

Even if one or 2 groups in an Open are desperate to play quickly, and pick up as soon as they can't score, they'll just catch the field in front where everyone is finishing most holes anyway.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I'd rather competitors are all simply just asked to submit each hole score. People will say that will slow play down. However, many players in groups do that now anyway, thus I never notice a difference in the pace of play between a typical fourball Saturday morning (where we are all submitting scores for handicap) and a Team of four Open. It isn't like all these opens are being played in sub 4 hours, whereas your fourball at the weekend (where we are all entering scores for handicap) are being played.

Even if one or 2 groups in an Open are desperate to play quickly, and pick up as soon as they can't score, they'll just catch the field in front where everyone is finishing most holes anyway.

They have done a lot of marketing in regards Ready Golf and Slow play with the mantra - if you can’t score then pick up etc etc

To then ask everyone to putt out etc will cause further slow play issues

But it’s something I can see the governing bodies doing because they are that detached from any golf club and reality

 

[Swango1980]

They have done a lot of marketing in regards Ready Golf and Slow play with the mantra - if you can’t score then pick up etc etc

To then ask everyone to putt out etc will cause further slow play issues

But it’s something I can see the governing bodies doing because they are that detached from any golf club and reality

Plenty of marketing that about 5% of golfers see, and maybe even less adhere to?

I think most golfers, when they pay to have a game at an away course they rarely or never play before, they don't want to be rushed, or pick up on many holes (when they can still typically score themselves if it had been singles Stableford). The longest rounds I typically play in are Team of 4 Opens, 2 best scores to count. They can be close to 5 hours. I am certain that all groups are not doing everything they possible can to fly around the course. I'm more certain that most golfers in each group are completing the hole, or at least getting to within 5 foot of the hole, by which point most of the time has been spent anyway playing the hole.

Personally, if I enter an Open somewhere, I don't expect to have a rapid round of golf. And given the amount of mistrust many have on the handicaps of golfers competing, personally I'd be very happy for all golfers to be asked to complete the score (like Stableford), and their handicaps will all be updated accordingly. Sure, if there are genuine cheats in Opens, there is nothing to stop certain players just putting down blobs when they can't score (for the Team). However, all 4 players would have to be in on the devious act, so hopefully that will trim down the amount cheating happens. Furthermore, there will be honest players with high handicaps who play in these, who don't play in many singles events for various reasons. At least their handicaps will become a better reflection of their ability.

 

[Bratty]

Not sure where you heard that? There aren't many 4BBB competitions in my region of NA. Maybe it's confusion with 4 ball better ball match play within the group? Scores made in that format are to be reported in NA.

I may well be confusing the two!
And 4BBB matchplay makes about as much sense to submit cards for if a score is to be made up.

 

[graham warwick]

Everyone should do as you currently do - only record the first to score the better score - so no, you shouldn't change.

Yes, it is possible for both players to have a score differential calculated for the round (NB doesn't necessarily mean they get a reduction in handicap).
Yes, competition software does allow both players scores to be entered for each hole.
For handicapping, scores are assigned to the pair and marked to indicate which player recorded that score.

Surely the software should only be set up to accept one score? Where both scores are entered are both used for handicap (if criteria fulfilled) or imputed points allocated to one score?

 

[wjemather]

Surely the software should only be set up to accept one score? Where both scores are entered are both used for handicap (if criteria fulfilled) or imputed points allocated to one score?

Per the rules, players are only responsible for their gross scores (and certifying them) - they are not responsible for applying their handicaps or calculating their Stableford points correctly (which is a good job, because a surprisingly high proportion of players don't do either correctly!).
The functionality of the software reflects this.

 

[graham warwick]

That may be true but for those golfers interested the methodology ought to be transparent and if you can choose to enter both scores or just the counting score I don’t think it is. I also don’t share your confidence in the functionality of the software

 

[wjemather]

That may be true but for those golfers interested the methodology ought to be transparent and if you can choose to enter both scores or just the counting score I don’t think it is. I also don’t share your confidence in the functionality of the software

The methodology is transparent (nothing about it is not published), and the software does exactly what it needs to do - the only thing that could be added would be a check box for 'first in the hole' but the confusion would far outweigh the benefit.

Players are advised that they should only enter the counting score, but it isn't their responsibility to know which that is.

 

[D-S]

Organisers, I understand, should be advising competitors to only enter one score per hole and if players repeatedly do not do this then they should sanction them. However as many of these competitions are played at away clubs or infrequently or with different partners then it is very difficult for organisers to know or record repeat offenders and then sanction them. So in reality if players enter both scores on all holes and then this is accepted.
My understanding is that the system is predicated on only one score per hole. So often having all or many or all holes with two scores per hole is contrary to the intention of the system, however it is almost never stopped.
The only reason for having software that would only accept one score per hole is that, if there happens to have be a concurrent 2s competition, how do you record two 2s at the same hole? Surely a simple issue to overcome with a bit of common sense - either in the software on a separate page or separate paper card to be filled for 2s. Then the first 2 holed (or the best net scoring 2) would be the counting one for handicap purposes.
It seems strange to have a mechanism for handicap reduction having different inputs and therefore results dependent on the whim of the players.